Four Mike Drums

[Mixwell]

"Audience Perspective"

Bock Audio 195 [Pad out/Fat out] KICK --- CUSTOM NEVE
TAB T58 Modified SM57 SNARE --- EL MIKE-E
Coles 4038 OH HAT SIDE --- VT2
Coles 4038 OH RIDE SIDE ---VT2

All patched into RADAR V, flat no processing.

[o.k-maybe I touched the "warm" and "toasty" light's a little on the snare]

We did some drum replacing [the acoustic kind] to a song the other night, and it came out really cool. It was a low key session that was really laid back and went well. There was ZERO stress over here at the MEth Lab! We did get sounds rather quick, and my simple approach seemed to offer some usable drum sounds for the project. Though, recording a great drummer is always easy. Jay Fitz, our Pit Boss, was on the kit, rocking like there ain't no tomorrow.

JAY-DRUMS (http://www.movethemics.com/uploads/adam/Jay-Kit.wav)

[AndrewHutchinson]

Sounds great!; especially the kick. I usually mix from drummer's perspective, but people give me shit for it, and I often have to flip it as per the clients wishes. It's really cool to hear a great drum pass recorded with four mic's as that's how I prefer to do it, (even 3 if I can get away with it.) Keep up the good work, friend

[Mixwell]

Sounds great!; especially the kick. I usually mix from drummer's perspective, but people give me shit for it, and I often have to flip it as per the clients wishes. It's really cool to hear a great drum pass recorded with four mic's as that's how I prefer to do it, (even 3 if I can get away with it.) Keep up the good work, friend

Thanks! Yea, I hear you on the panning perspective. When I was climbing my way up as an assistant here @ the MEth Lab, watching how other engineers work their stereo mike positioning and panning, really made me aware of how potent these stereo perspective's can portray an instrument and performance. It might be good to start a thread about player versus audience placement, and stereo mike technique, so as to further the discussion about where the put the microphones [and then moving them] and how doing so, directly relates to the players performance and an audience's perspective, along with the context of the arrangement.

For the cue: If the drummer needs to hear himself live in the cans, I think player perspective is really what is called for, which is somewhat obvious I think. I mean, you don't want to spin his head around his shoulders when he goes to the ride cymbal. Some drummers don't want to hear themselves live in the cans, [they are in the same room as the drums] and then its a matter of where you've put the microphones, and how you can make the kit sound like a kit, and not a bunch of different drums all over the place. Stereo is your friend!

So yea, 3-4 drum mike setups are where its at for me with a great drummer.

[phrenology]

I've discovered something recently: as much as I LOVE tracking drums with an overhead SF-12, Telefunken ak47 on kick, and 57 on snare, I've had jazz clients request, after hearing the first go round with those mics, that I add spot tom mics for a little extra articulation.

At first I was iffy on the prospect cause i'm lazy [bleed or gating? Decisions!]...but after I heard the results, I got to say....she was right.

Is there any way to modify the 4 mic placement/processing to get more articulation from the toms with a very dynamic, sensitive jazzy drummer? Or do I just suck it up and pop the extra mics on?

[Mixwell]

I've discovered something recently: as much as I LOVE tracking drums with an overhead SF-12, Telefunken ak47 on kick, and 57 on snare, I've had jazz clients request, after hearing the first go round with those mics, that I add spot tom mics for a little extra articulation.

At first I was iffy on the prospect cause i'm lazy [bleed or gating? Decisions!]...but after I heard the results, I got to say....she was right.

Is there any way to modify the 4 mic placement/processing to get more articulation from the toms with a very dynamic, sensitive jazzy drummer? Or do I just suck it up and pop the extra mics on?

The big thing to remember is you are creating a sense of balance, ultimately presenting the instrument in context. Its gotta be based on that, and certainly with Jazz stuff, depending on the drummers style, the tunings, choice of cymbal's, player chops and dynamic, etc.....I THINK its the stereo image that is quite important so as to develop the movement of the instrument and performance. My mic selection/amount/choice/placement has to be based on the dynamic of the performance, with the sound of the kit taken into consideration. So, you've gotta choose what makes your life easier, what is acceptable to you, and ultimately what establishes client satisfaction. There is a happy balance. Take it as it comes with the content that is given to you, your room etc.....as there is really no absolute preference. As Fletcher once said in a post [which I thought was worth quoting] "It all depends on what you have, and where you feel like using it" and he was speaking about how he noticed a friend engineer using a pair of beloved C12's for tom mikes.

At any rate, shooting the birds in my head: try and experiment with your 3 mics, closer in range, or switched up completely. I like the SF12 no more than 4 feet up from the drum kit with the sides aiming hat/ride, laid horizontal over the center of the kit. You might also try using the AK47 in OMNI dead center over the kit, and the SF12 as a FOK mic. Could be cool, could absolutely suck. This is why you gotta try moving the mikes. I would also try the AK47 in Figure Eight, laid out aiming out at the crash, sort of outward bound, with a floor side microphone, and a FOK or inside kick mike. I've got some of the best sounds I've ever got with a Royer 122V in this OH position, with a vintage UM57 as a floor mic, aiming into the kit, [phase aligned by moving several times] and an RE20 on kick. The Drummer was Tony though, he iz a fucking dynamo. I'll see what can be done to post that example.

[AndrewHutchinson]

Hi,
A player vs. audience perspective thread would probably yield some interesting results. I guess it's because I was a performer before I was an engineer that it sounds more natural to me, but I also understand the desire to have the "concert hall in your living room" sound that was Edison's wish in the first place. I will say that I have to, unless I'm paid to do otherwise, mix a piano from player's perspective; I can't stand hearing bass notes in my right ear. Anyway, I'm really psyched to keep reading and contributing to this thread, and as I've been saying to everyone recently, look forward to seeing everyone at AES

[Halfway Competent]

How did you position the kick mic? Last time I tried an LDC (AT-4047) on kick, I had to get it re-capsuled...

[Mixwell]

How did you position the kick mic? Last time I tried an LDC (AT-4047) on kick, I had to get it re-capsuled...

Oh, about 2 1/2 inches off the face of the outside head.

It was aiming straight at the head, slightly off center to the beater head.

[Halfway Competent]

On the beater head, or the front head? I'm confused...

I put the 4047 inside the drum, a couple inches in from the hole. It sounded fantastic for about 10 hits or so... Then it quit. :o

(Audio Technica customer service said, "Absolutely you can use it; it can handle 150 dB!" AT tech support said, "Well... I wouldn't.")

[Mixwell]

On the out head.

Sorry, let me reiterate my words;

I did not put it dead center of the outside head.

I put it staggered to the left [audience perspective] of where the beater head strikes the front head.

[Halfway Competent]

Last time I used that mic placement the drummer complained there wasn't enough attack. Yours has quite a bit, though... I think next time I'll stick my EV Raven inside to get shell/attack, and stick the 4047 outside to get the lows (and not blow up the capsule again).

[Mixwell]

Last time I used that mic placement the drummer complained there wasn't enough attack. Yours has quite a bit, though... I think next time I'll stick my EV Raven inside to get shell/attack, and stick the 4047 outside to get the lows (and not blow up the capsule again).

Brilliant!

[Tomasz]

Glynn Johns technique on the drums... works great with great drummers, though some guys "nancy boy" the toms and tracking them as well can give you some options.. you got it if you need it.

[Sandyrb]

some guys "nancy boy" the toms.

This is the headache of headaches for me. They wail on the kick, snare, cymbals... in fact everything BUT the toms. It really wazzes me off. Most drummers round here are like that. In fact there's only one that I know who consistently puts as much energy into the toms as the other instruments on the kit (which is one of the reasons why he's my go-to session guy).

But with a good drummer the 3 or 4 mic thing is magic. It's extremely rare to hear such pleasing drum sounds on a modern record.

Now... does anyone else phase-match them post-record?

And, how does that TAB modded '57 compare to the version we all know and ... uh... "love"?

Cheers,

[phrenology]

I've got a TAB 58, and it's f*(%&g brilliant. It has saved my ass on several occasions. And not just snare--horns, piano, vox. Killer.

[Tomasz]

Now... does anyone else phase-match them post-record?

Yes... utilizing a certain phase alignment tool that allows "in between Phase" adjustments.... sometimes it sounds rocking and then post record one realizes that the phase alignment could be better.... gotta get the take while the drummer is Feeling it... some might call it fixing it in the mix, but I think of it as good workflow........

[Ken Morgan]

Now... does anyone else phase-match them post-record?



,

I think that's where careful measurement in the pre stage comes in. When the distance between the top and the side mics is the same in relation to the center of the snare, there is just no way there can be a phase differences (in a decent room of course)

Given all other options, I'll do the 4 mic set up 85% of the time, usually opting for ribbons of some sort on top and side, a Joly modded 319 on front of kick, and typically a Josephson C42, a 57, or an RE11 on the snare. I prefer to keep all drum pres of the ADesigns P1/Pacifica variety or the API variety, opting not to mix and match.

(but that is a thread unto itself)

[level devil]

When the distance between the top and the side mics is the same in relation to the center of the snare, there is just no way there can be a phase differences (in a decent room of course)



Maybe not phase difference as in time difference, however the polarity of the signal from the bot/top mic's will be the opposite. Personally I think the snare sounds better with the polarity inverted on the bottom mic. Anyone else?

And, the "oomp" from the kick is pure brilliant in the clip. Nice!

[Sandyrb]

Hi guys.

I think that's where careful measurement in the pre stage comes in.

Yup, always measure those overheads. That's a huge consideration. I find they usually end up between around 35 and 50 inches from center of snare, depending on drummer and room. Anyone else?

For a while I messed around with single-point overheads using an AKG C426B but I wasn't very happy with the results. The sounds in themselves were great but the stereo field was uninteresting.

But what I was referring to was to match phases after recording. For example to advance the overheads track so that the phase matches the snare etc. If you're working digital it's an easy thing to do. Yields freakin' awesome drum tracks. I just wondered if anyone else had messed with it.

typically a Josephson C42 [...] on the snare.

Now that's interesting Ken. Because I love the super-tight polar pattern on the C42 I thought it might work for snare and cut down the hat spill but upon experimentation I found that the capsule tops out so easily it was unworkable. C42s killer for hats though - if you happen to need a mic on there. Actually I love those little guys on acoustic as well. But anyway I was wondering if you'd run across this particular issue with the '42?

Most of the time I use a Josephson e22s taped to a '57. The e22 gives that lovely wiry top end whilst the '57 gives the punch. Also I can take a mult of the 57 track and squash the livin' dogsnots out of it later to give that "doosh!" eighties sound if I want. :)

Personally I think the snare sounds better with the polarity inverted on the bottom mic. Anyone else?

Naturally - you'll want the phase of the two mics to match. But I flop the phase on the top mic instead. I like the first half-cycle of any drum to be positive-going so that the speaker cone advances out toward the listener first. Just a personal thing. But of course - if you've phase-matched as above - you've got to flop the overheads and any tom mics too.

Here's another thing... does anyone else have the experience of being dissed because you "don't have enough mics on the drums"? Boy that pi**es me off.

Cheers,

[Ken Morgan]

But anyway I was wondering if you'd run across this particular issue with the '42?



Not really, since most of the time the 42 is used with softer, more controlled (IE known) drummers = the ones we use on hired sessions...almost always on snares and brushwork gigs. the guys we don't know usually start out with a 57 (and their own snares :D)

As for the 42s being a great acoustic mic...yup.

BTW - great room you got there.

[albert]

When appropriate:

I love an R88 in Blumlein leaning over the front of the kit at about 20 degrees. The stereo image achieved is something very special, and I love it when summed to mono as well.

The nice complement to go on the kick is a large diapgrahm condenser, or ribbon (i.e. I have used the R92 with plenty of success, angled at about 60 degrees, distance is extremely critical, because of the proximity effect).

Sadly, some people won't be very excited about recording in this fashion. Usually, you will know because they will keep asking where the eight or ten tom mics are. It happens, and that goes for any mic technique that is four or less.

I almost always prefer performer's perspective for all instruments, however -- I always make it a point to ask the artist what they feel more comfortable with. They tend to appreciate that, and usually ask for audience perspective (which is okay, I just prefer the other way).

[albert]

I've discovered something recently: as much as I LOVE tracking drums with an overhead SF-12, Telefunken ak47 on kick, and 57 on snare, I've had jazz clients request, after hearing the first go round with those mics, that I add spot tom mics for a little extra articulation.

At first I was iffy on the prospect cause i'm lazy [bleed or gating? Decisions!]...but after I heard the results, I got to say....she was right.

Is there any way to modify the 4 mic placement/processing to get more articulation from the toms with a very dynamic, sensitive jazzy drummer? Or do I just suck it up and pop the extra mics on?
Worth mentioning, is that when I use the R88 as I mention here in this thread, it eliminates the need for tom mics, because the R88 is truly the ultimate tom mic in my opinion. :) No gating of weird overtones ringing the whole song or anything like that necessary because it's not too close to pick up that junk.

Try putting your SF-12 closer and more parallel with the tom skins like I mentioned. Let me know if you try it and gets results.