Advise on Compressor/Limiters -

[ricbonnell]

After being null and void with recording for many many years - I have been resurrected into recording because of my youngest offspring (13 year old daughter) making me get back into it...and well...the girls reasonably talented - so - I figured what the heck.

Background: have some basic recording experience - not a whole lot. Knowledge base is lacking in a lot of areas - especially with dynamics control devices - little to no experience with them actually other than a Symetrics 501. So - asking for some schooling, viewpoints and even a suggested box or two that I should get in order to do what I need. Sorry if the questions are foolishly noob'ish - but, that's why I'm sticking it here...

- So regarding vocal tracking and dynamics - is there one type of 'box' better performing/suitable than another i.e optical vs multi-mu etc in relation to vocal tracking?

- With vocals - I've learned to try different mics (if available) with different vocalists to find one that sounds best suited for that particular singer - is it the same case with compressors? I mean - is it advisable to have a couple of different manufacturers of a say, an optical based compressor - because like mic selection - one kind/make can be better suited for each singer.


My current dweeb of a setup for vocal tracking is a few different mics - a home made tube preamp - going into a MOTU 24 i/o and using SONAR as a DAW. Currently using the compressor plug ins with SONAR - ummm- yuckie to so - so sounding at best.

Also - have a recent clip of my daughter performing of which if anyone's willing - possibly critique my technique?

And - once a suitable solution is ID'ed for me- would anyone know a good resource to buy?? ;)

Thanks for the time and any input you could offer me.

ric.

[Jeremy Krull]

The guys from who run this forum will have more detailed and educated answers to give you, as they have tried and used many more hardware compressors than I have (by a LONGSHOT hahaha).

But if I were to recommend ONE single compressor, which would yield a ridiculous amount of versatility (and fun), it would have to by the Distressor (made by Empirical Labs). In my experiences, especially with tracking vocals through this unit, it has a fairly wide variety of combinations for dynamic range control. Operation is also fairly straight forward, with Input, Output, Attack, and Release controls (as well as a few other small things, and ratio selection obviously). Did I mention it's really versatile? :)

Ultimately like with most of recording, there's no set way to do things. Some people I know SWEAR by using the LA-2A on vocals (an optical limiter), and that tends to yield a very smooth and controlled sound depending on how much gain reduction you use. Other people, like to use a super-fast attack and release with a considerably large amount of reduction for a really fast sense of dynamic range control. Some people do both, some people completely odd things that I can't even think of.

It really depends on what your sonic goal is and how much compression you want to leave to mixing (unless of course you want this box specifically for mixing as well).

hope some of this helps...

[Sandyrb]

dynamics control devices - little to no experience with them actually other than a Symetrics 501.

Hi Ric.

Never underestimate the power of the mighty Symetrix 501!!! :) That is the single most amazing compressor for 'ultimate snare crack' that I've known in my entire career. I have one of them, it cost me $15 from the basement of a TV station. Holy crap am I ever glad I got it! I wish I had at least three more (especially if I could find them for that price haha).

if I were to recommend ONE single compressor, which would yield a ridiculous amount of versatility (and fun), it would have to by the Distressor.

My love for the Symetrix 501 notwithstanding, I would definitely agree with Jeremy right here. The Distressor is a bloomin' amazing gadget. There's a whole range of different tonal and dynamics possibilities with it. It works for pretty much anything you can think of, all the way from subtle to rude. They're not cheap, but they're so worth it. Obviously it's not the only great compressor out there but, again, I wish I had more of them.

Cheers,

[Mixwell]

After being null and void with recording for many many years - I have been resurrected into recording because of my youngest offspring (13 year old daughter) making me get back into it...and well...the girls reasonably talented - so - I figured what the heck.

Welcome back Ric, and Welcome to Move the Mics!

Recording has missed you. I think you've chosen the right forum to participate given your hiatus from the wide world of recording.

Background: have some basic recording experience - not a whole lot. Knowledge base is lacking in a lot of areas - especially with dynamics control devices - little to no experience with them actually other than a Symetrics 501. So - asking for some schooling, viewpoints and even a suggested box or two that I should get in order to do what I need. Sorry if the questions are foolishly noob'ish - but, that's why I'm sticking it here...


No worries, as stated I think your in the right place with the right questions. If we were all masters of our craft, I think life would be a bit boring, so sharing the knowledge and experience about RECORDING is really what we're all about @ Move the Mics.

- So regarding vocal tracking and dynamics - is there one type of 'box' better performing/suitable than another i.e optical vs multi-mu etc in relation to vocal tracking?

Well, certainly! But it is utterly subjective and certainly dependent on a lot of other factors. Better or worse are relative to the end user, in just about every aspect of this game. Objectively, there certainly units that are "better" or "worse" for one thing or another, but I think that's a bit more advanced question and concept to grasp, [gear selection] and right now its more about "purpose" and use of "X" compressor, and why you need this device for recording. We could sit here for days discussing what "X" box and "Y" units are good/bad/ugly/better for, but since compression in itself takes a life time to master, I think we should talk a little about why one would use a compressor and the desired effect thereof. We can't all be Michael Brauer, now can we. There's a dude who KNOWS what a compressor is going to do.

- With vocals - I've learned to try different mics (if available) with different vocalists to find one that sounds best suited for that particular singer - is it the same case with compressors? I mean - is it advisable to have a couple of different manufacturers of a say, an optical based compressor - because like mic selection - one kind/make can be better suited for each singer.

More or less, I think so. Gear selection is really the game, and it involves everything and anything that surrounds your tool set. However, there are NO RULES with recording, other than the RULES you make for yourself, given your experiences with the sounds you like and try to reach for.

My current dweeb of a setup for vocal tracking is a few different mics - a home made tube preamp - going into a MOTU 24 i/o and using SONAR as a DAW. Currently using the compressor plug ins with SONAR - ummm- yuckie to so - so sounding at best. Also - have a recent clip of my daughter performing of which if anyone's willing - possibly critique my technique? And - once a suitable solution is ID'ed for me- would anyone know a good resource to buy?? ;) Thanks for the time and any input you could offer me.

Absolutely! It will certainly give us a better idea of the recordings, and what is really warranted for processing the sound.

With that said, the above posters have made a solid recommendation with the EL8. Its a Swiss Army knife for compression, but it definitely has a unique sonic stamp, while being able to emulate [not clone] many types of compression circuits. At any rate, let the chips fall where they may, and I would invite you to talk about your aesthetic, the artists aesthetic, and the overall goals of the project, so as to get closer to finding the right tool for the job. That's really what its all about.

I hope this helps Ric. Lets make this thread less compressed, while we bring up all the low level detail of your preference.

[ricbonnell]

First - thanks Sandy, Jeremy and Adam very much for the replies and the time taken from your schedules to answer my questions. I do appreciate that.

OK - so...it seems the 'swiss army knife' approach by way of the 'Distressor' may be a good first dynamics tool to begin with for me. It makes good sense - since you all seem to give it high marks for it's flexibility for different audio scenarios. I will indeed be getting that tool ASAP.

Currently - with my daughter being the guinea pig so to speak - she's more like - well believe it or not - folk/acoustic. Go figure - she's 13 now (August) but - over the summer - she got me to get her tickets and drive her to the Bob Dylan concert - yeah, I know - a 12/13 year old Dylan fan! :eek: That's what she's into...

She's got a few original tunes she's written...and that's what I'll be up to for R&D'ing my recordings for a while I guess!

So - I will try and get an MP3 up on a cover tune she wanted to do - Imagine - Lennon. She plays guitar - it's a 1/2 size nylon string acoustic - of which she'd get lost behind a full size guitar being petite as she is...

**hmmm - tried UL'ing it seems the site has a 1.9m limit on mp3's....


The only mic I used for the whole bit was a Blue Blueberry through my home made tube pre. I had her track the guitar first, she then dubbed the vox, she wanted bass on it so I tracked a bass line myself -then added some percussion - a toy bongo drum and a baby rattle maraca...that's basically it.

All compression is through software- that being SONAR.

It's sparse and open - but - I think that's the way it should sound??

-------------------------------------------------------------
any ideas on where/how to park a tune temporarily for a critique?? I can pull it afterwards...

[Mixwell]

Hey Ric,

Can you shorten the length of the file for upload?

I'm sure all we need to help is the first half of the song or a snippet to get us rolling on what we hear, what your hearing and what your missing.

[ricbonnell]

yeah - i thought of doing that afterward.

will truncate and attach once i get home later tonite....

Thanks! I appreciate your time!

r

[ricbonnell]

OK - did some surgery and shrunk it down...THE FILE that is.

It think it's OK...but...

Oh - i guess the room should need mention too. i have a HUGE basement - 1700 square feet. It's a house I built (general contractor) - but one thing I did that I think was smart even though I didn't have recording in mind when I did it - I had 10 foot basement walls poured so my basement floor to first floor joist height is nearly 11 feet...

Anyway - appreciate any and all input - and I promise - this will be the only one......I'm sure y'all got better things to do!!

Take care!

[Mixwell]

OK - did some surgery and shrunk it down...THE FILE that is.

It think it's OK...but...

Oh - i guess the room should need mention too. i have a HUGE basement - 1700 square feet. It's a house I built (general contractor) - but one thing I did that I think was smart even though I didn't have recording in mind when I did it - I had 10 foot basement walls poured so my basement floor to first floor joist height is nearly 11 feet...

Anyway - appreciate any and all input - and I promise - this will be the only one......I'm sure y'all got better things to do!!

Take care!


Hey Ric,

WOW! She's got some CHOPS!!! It sounds like you guys are having a blast!

I can definitely hear the software comp's your using, and in my experience, the cartoons don't really cut the mustard, so I don't use them. Even for fun. They "small" the audio out to my ear [they make it very 2D sounding] with even the slightest hint of reduction. But, your example sounds good, and its a certainly a good starting point.

As a side note, I would suggest getting her a new acoustic guitar though. That might help WAY before the compressor, but I can dig it. You guys are starting on a cool adventure in "having fun", and Father/daughter bonding!!! Certainly, I think getting healthier, more controlled sounds into the recorder will make your life way easier, and you'll both be having more fun at mix time. So with that said, Yea, a compressor will help "etch" out the dynamics better, and keep the quiet parts as even as the loud parts. It will allow you to bring up more low level detail in the microphone, and of course the instruments. It will also smooth out the response of any instrument, specifically bass [for me anyway]. I find with bass, I do need to record with some mild to moderate compression to lighten/soften the attack of the note and make sure its even with every other instrument. With vocals, Just "tapping" the meter with reduction usually adds some nice flavor to the sound depending what kind of settings your using. This is especially noteworthy with the EL8.

[seaneldon]

As a side note, I would suggest getting her a new acoustic guitar though. That might help WAY before the compressor, but I can dig it.

Huge ditto. Get this girl a real guitar.

[ricbonnell]

Thanks for the listen and assessment gents! And the kudos!

Yeah - I definitely agree and think another guitar would certainly be a good move - and sonic improvement. What she has now is what she learned on - it's a small little nylon classical. Not bold sounding like a steel string for sure - more like a 'Willie Nelson' sound?:p

I have been looking for a steel string for her. Like I said - she's small/petite - and a full size acoustic would be WAY to over bearing on her and possibly too biggish for her to play comfortably. So - I've been looking for a 'parlor' size guitar...and have found a couple that I think will be good for her.

So - great! Those two pieces of advice I think are right on - EL8 and a better guitar.

Question on the EL8 - what about the Brit Mod I've read about. Is it worth the extra dough to get an EL8 with the option in place?

Well guys - thanks a bunch again. Super help and a great resource!!

[Chuchi]

Hi, Ciao a tutti

Being not an native English speaker gives me some excuses for the errors that will remain in my post.....;)
Your daughter have certainly a good talent...you say that she is small...but as I understood she a teenager and will grow up...

Regarding the parlor guitar, keep in mind that except some extremely expensive guitars such as Froggy Bottom..The “parlor” guitars don't have that punch and projection of the sound...that means that subtle sound might not be heard or expressed. Another challenge is to find one that is very well balanced all over the neck since she play strumming…am I right ?
Another option would be to find a shape like the OM size guitar since they don’t have a full depth body (which helps the shoulders)… and try to find a 12 frets guitar instead of a 14 frets. Tension is less pronounced, she will not have that much difficulties to switch from a nylon “ buttered” playing style to a guitar that is easy to handle with both the right arm and the left one.
These guitars have naturally a full sound and very easy to play with bending possibilities…
This is only an advice but I wanted to share my own experience with “parlor” and small OM size guitars.
Last but not least, remember that the only way to make purchase on a guitar is to actually play it (knee, shoulder, left hand, shape of the body’s curve) and a personal relationship with the guitar that will live with you for a long time.:)

Ciao a tutti

Chuchi

[Sandyrb]

Hey Ric.

I definitely agree and think another guitar would certainly be a good move - and sonic improvement. [...] I have been looking for a steel string for her.

I freely confess to not knowing a great deal about acoustic guitars but I've been having some awesome results out of Tanglewood and Guild recently. We rent them from a music store just down the road from the studio. Check 'em out dude, they might be cost-effective. :)

Cheers,

[ricbonnell]

Hey guys - thanks for the kind words and guitar advice...all good!


"Your daughter have certainly a good talent...you say that she is small...but as I understood she a teenager and will grow up..."


Errr...wishful thinking. She's probably maxed out where she is - as the old man (me) is only 5' 3" (160cm) and my wife is smaller than that so...not much hope me thinks!

Anyway - she'll need a 'parlor' size - so that's what I've been on the look out for...I'll see if Tanglewood and Guild might have something appropriate...thanks!

I'll keep you posted on what I finally get for her...

Great forum...thanks for the work putting it together and maintaining it. I know it's not as easy as it seems.

Ric

[pauly]

But if I were to recommend ONE single compressor, which would yield a ridiculous amount of versatility (and fun), it would have to by the Distressor (made by Empirical Labs).

+1 on the distressor