What is Pre-Production? [Archive]

Jeremy Krull

27 Sep 2009, 13:23

Doesn't that kind of vary depending on the production though?

To me, depending on the project really, it's about a few things:

1. I try normally to work with the group or artist to make sure that at the very least all of their songs are written (and to a point of completion that the artist is satisfied and committed to)

2. Depending on how dense the songs are, we'd at least try to hammer down most of the major arrangements (especially the 'essential' parts, whatever the artist has in their head as something that sticks out)

3. Demos, at varying degrees. A lot of the time if I've started with working with a group or artist before we go into the actual studio, they'll be sending mockups over of songs and ideas.

I don't know what use that is to everyone else, everyone goes about it differently, one thing I try to avoid is rehearsing/writing in the studio. My need for preparedness doesn't really stem from wanting to save money on studio time, but more that I want the talent to be as comfortable and at ease with what they're doing as possible (and not having to worry about fundamental stuff that late into the game either).

-Jeremy

Mixwell

27 Sep 2009, 13:43

Doesn't that kind of vary depending on the production though?

Of course Jeremy, everything is variable and without detents.

I think PRACTICING hits home most for me.

At the end of the day, if you care about your music, or your art, you'll find a way to develop it, and make it the best [or the worst, your choice] you can muster. If you like what you are doing, your doing it wrong. It all Depends on what you think is good and what you think could be better. I think just about everything could be better, all the time, at least when I'm in the studio. I think this attitude lends itself to the result.

wyman

28 Sep 2009, 10:37

Cool, this is something I actually feel qualified to chime in on...

Like Jeremy, I use preproduction as a way to take care of the stuff that I don't need to be spending "studio money" on. For one thing, the projects I work on are usually budgeted without much wiggle room, so I need every minute I can in the shop, and also, I've found that the pressure of being in the studio and spending money can cause a "deer-in-the-headlights" reaction when changes are suggested, inciting panic, and generally leaving you worse off than if you just left the damn thing alone.

The biggest part of it for me is getting a chance to interact with the artists before we hunker down. I want to get the best performance possible from people, so I want them to be comfortable with me. Preproduction can get all (or some) of the proverbial "butt-sniffing" out of the way and let people get acquainted in a low pressure environment.

It's also a chance for me to learn people's musical vocabulary. One of my favorite parts of working on a project is being introduced to new music by the artist. Instead of using vague adjectives to describe a drum sound or something, play me some shit. Let me hear what you've been digging.

And then there's the nuts and bolts of it... the "glorified rehearsal" part of it, where, as an objective outside ear, I may bring something to the table that might help the song. Again, like Jeremy said, get the bulk of the arrangement down, and make sure there are no glaring issues (i.e. guitars changing chords on the "and" of 4, everyone else changing on 1.)

If it's appropriate, sometimes, I'll suggest certain things that I feel tighten up an arrangement: make sure the kick drum and bass guitar are really working together, perhaps make a drum fill reinforce the guitar or vocal line instead of playing something completely different. Break the band down and do sectionals: drums and bass, bass and guitar, guitar and vocal. This can help to keep the din of the rehearsal space down a little bit and to perhaps shed light on something folks may not have noticed before.

I've never really had the luxury to do this, but working out background or harmony vocals in advance, outside of the studio, seems like a great idea. Nothing brings a session to a grinding halt faster than someone saying "okay, now let's do harmonies" and NOTHING is prepared. More often than not, it's been my experience that this leads to one person in the booth trying to work out a part, while three other guys sit on the couch also trying to simultaneously work out a part, and me somehow trying to negotiate communication AND get a usable performance.

In a perfect world, I like to do all of this in advance. For one thing, it gives them time to practice anything that may be changed and free themselves of the muscle memory they've been tethered to without being under the scrutiny of the studio. They can practice the parts and get more confident with them, and confidence sounds good. What's even cooler is when they take an idea and run with it and come up with a really superior arrangement based on the seeds that we've planted in preproduction.

So, yeah... basically, a chance to get some stuff out of the way that doesn't need to be done IN the studio. It's just a win-win situation for me. Everyone is more comfortable and confident, and we have the basics worked out so that we can spend our time making the recording great.

Sandyrb

28 Sep 2009, 10:58

Adam, I will strongly agree with your last statement there. Whenever I'm doing pre-pro with a band I tell them that the two most important words are "AIM HIGHER!"

The trouble, I find, is that too many bands/artists are satisfied by what they hear and what they think they hear ie; they turn the distortion up to 11 because that's what they *think* their favorite band has done. Standards are overall way too low and there's an "it'll do" attitude which exposes their faith that (quote) everything can be fixed in Pro Tools later. Me being the cruel swine that I am, there have been occasions where I've deliberately shown them how bad they are further down the line with the words "well, you played it!". As has often been said, kindness costs nothing but cruelty's a lot more fun.

And on the subject of rehearsing/practicing, holy cow! That's THE most important thing of all. I tell bands to rehearse, rehearse, rehearse and when they think they've got it, go and do it again. Practice at different tempos, practice in different keys. Once they've got the songs thoroughly ingrained in their heads and they don't have to think about what chord comes next, then they can concentrate on the *performance* which, after all, is the one thing that really can't be faked. :-)

I, personally, am driven by the sheer quality of the records that I loved when I was a kid and that still hold the "magic" for me now. Bands like Steely, Queen, Abba, Rush, Fleetwood, Police... I'm driven by the yearning to make records which touch me in the same way as those. As long as that's not happening, I still have work to do. :-)

Cheers,

Mixwell

28 Sep 2009, 13:40

Excellent Posts Wyman, and Sandyrb!

This is EXACTLY what I am talking about.

You guys seem to have your way locked in.

Everyone is different. There is no right/wrong answer. Its seems to be more of an "attitude" and "philosophy" more than a necessity, though that depends on who you ask, and I'm asking you guys. I think the end result comes out far more potent when the level of attention to DETAIL is heightened at each step of the production. Cutting the demo first, or spending some time to facilitate the "program", really does allow you [and the people whom you're recording or producing] to find what will work, and what won't. This exercise seems to me, to be utterly crucial to the actual recording, unless your talking about the next G.G. ALLEN! Any one have a wet nap handy? Its all relative to the actual dance and the complexity [or simplicity] and nature of the material. I can tell you I sit and toil with my stuff for years until it resembles the sound in my head. THEN I bring the tracks to the studio.

You guys also touched on a very important aspect in your posts, which I think is sometimes even MORE important than practicing for the recording. Maybe. The EXPERIENCE you are giving your clients during ALL of these stages. If you make them FEEL comfortable in your environment [which includes the actual recordings happening] they will preform with a higher level of acuity, and I've seen people reach down inside themselves to pull out something extremely special, it just about represents the soul found within them. The artists will perform better when they are placed in a more comfortable atmosphere in which to create. I think it all requires some practice, and then a lot of hard work when recording in the studio for real.

Jeremy Krull

28 Sep 2009, 14:43

Sandyrb, I definitely feel you on the "satisfied with what they hear and what they think they hear"...

another thing I really neglected to mention, is that even pre-cursor to the actual process...it's gotta be a good fit. And there has to be trust and comfort. I mean, there's a LOT of decisions to be made sometimes, and they can't always just be made on the fly, it's too weird for the artists to have their methods acted upon, and sometimes the same in our direction.

It's not that they're always purposefully stubborn, but to a degree, they're hesitant and unsure.

-Jeremy

Zachg

28 Sep 2009, 19:02

I've noticed that with the bands I'm in/ one my firends are in, bands often don't seem to want to be prepared. This is painfully obvious with metals bands around my age (mid-to late teens). :confused: Sort of like what Sandy said, the words "Fix it in the mix/mastering/advertissing" (haha) are in there eyes and they seem to think that the engeneer/producer will make it all perfect in Pro Tools ( Melodyne, BD, Elastic Audio, etc). They don't seem to realise they have lots of work to do.

This is, in my opinon why most modern commercial music gets so bad. The band's often don't seem to realize that to have a good product you have to prepare too.

Went a little OT there but basically my point is, for me, bands need prepare, and not assume that everyone else will make it perfect for them, then they think it's all their work. That's why a producer is so important.

P.S. I think this a pretty good article about arranging/pre-pro (parts of it anyways)
http://thewombforums.com/showthread.php?t=10359

This better make sense :D

Sandyrb

29 Sep 2009, 00:03

Okay, I've bored countless bands with this analogy but as it seems to work I'm gonna bore you good people with it. :-)

Making a record is like constructing a building.
You start with the blueprint; that's your song.
You lay foundations; that's arranging.
You create the basement; that's rehearsing.
You build the ground floor; that's your bed tracks/basics.
Each subsequent floor is an overdub.
The top floor is your final mix, the penthouse suite is mastering.

Each stage of the building is dependent on the quality of the one before it. You can't start building at the third floor. In the same way, you can't make a good mix out of a crappy recording. Moreover, any construction guy will tell you that a crack in the foundations will eventually make its way to the penthouse suite. If the arrangement is overcrowded, so will the final mix be, etc.

At each stage of the building you have to plan for those ahead. It's no good making a great basement if it's not going to support the eventual weight of the roof. In the same way at each stage of the recording you have to be mindful of those that come after. Will this snare sound work at final mix time? Will that bass part mix well with the guitar? Will that lead counterpoint clash with the vocal? What will the end listener *perceive* after 'mastering dude' has smacked the livin' dogsnots out of it?

So I tell bands that making a record is a process, that you have to line up your ducks in a row and that what they do before arriving at the studio is equally as important as what happens in the studio. Once they understand this, things seem to go a lot smoother.

Anyway now I'll climb down off me soap-box before I start getting all politically-incorrect. :-)

Cheers,

Sandyrb

29 Sep 2009, 00:21

It's not that they're always purposefully stubborn, but to a degree, they're hesitant and unsure.

Yeah totally right, Jeremy. In fact sometimes I get the impression that they think the recordist's job is to ruin their recording. See, I guess it's possible that their last project was done in Mr M-Box's basement and the 'recordist' actually DID ruin their recording because he didn't have a clue what he was doing. But I digress...

So to further agree with your post there has to be a level of trust - I think that's what you referred to by 'a good fit'. I think if a producer isn't confident that they can make a positive contribution to a project, they really shouldn't take it on.

That's why I stopped doing metal arf arf arf. :p

Cheers,

Jeremy Krull

29 Sep 2009, 02:01

I guess it's possible that their last project was done in Mr M-Box's basement and the 'recordist' actually DID ruin their recording because he didn't have a clue what he was doing...That's why I stopped doing metal arf arf arf. :p

Man do I have stories, upon stories, of some of the things I've read, and more importantly some of the "engineers" I've dealt with...in the metal realm and elsewhere. Metal I think has become a MUCH harder genre to produce these days because the average capability/instrument talent of the bands is pretty much shot to shit now (because everyone's so quick to grid/tune/replace/reamp/copy/paste). Everyone wants the most gain, the active pickups, the drummers hit like little pansies, and the vocalists can't do anything unless they cup a handheld. Sometimes though, once in a blue moon, you do happen across truly talented players who are not swayed by how things are "supposed to" sound...like this country record I did most of at the METH Lab. But now, I'VE digressed...:D

Sandyrb

29 Sep 2009, 11:08

Sometimes though, once in a blue moon, you do happen across truly talented players who are not swayed by how things are "supposed to" sound...like this country record I did most of at the METH Lab.

Haha! Ironically my favorite project this year is also a country artist. He sensibly hired real musicians. Cost him a bunch of money but made a great record. Now if only I had projects like that all the time!

Yeah man the metal round here - and the recordings of said - plumbs new depths of not-very-good-ness. I just came to realize that I didn't like it enough to do it justice. As soon as I decided to let the other lads at the studio do all that stuff, I felt a lot better. I used to like metal but, as you suggested, the level of talent has taken such a downturn. But you're right; it's not just that. Most of the "recordings" of such artists round here are just vile. It's all drum samples, beat detective, pitch correction even on the bass, extinction level distortion so you can't hear all the bum notes, everything compressed to snot, not even using real amps and distorted to sh*t in the "mastering" process (I use the term advisedly) by some laptop-toting kid with no experience who isn't remotely familiar with the word 'quality'. It nearly makes me puke. Steady Sandy... hold it down lad...

In the words of Walter Sear; "What have they done to my art?"

Anyway I'm kinda getting right off topic here so... back to the wonderful world of pre-pro... Isn't pre-pro great? :-)

Cheers,

Strewnshank

29 Sep 2009, 12:43

Great thoughts above!

I use preproduction as a way to save me and my clients money in the studio. My brain boils when a band gets into a discussion in the studio about to how long to play the 1st prechorus, or if we should reharm the bridge from major to minor. I'm not a bean counter, but if I can iron all that stuff out ahead of time with the band in their rehearsal space, then why the heck not?

If we are tracking to a click, then I try to build the sessions at my mix spot first, complete with scratch vocals and guitars or keys (even if we are going to retrack scratches live), marker maps, etc, so that when we get in the recording space, we can concentrate on whats important. When surrounded with a lot of fun toys, the last thing I want to do is have my head in a monitor building a tempo map.
I couldn't believe how much more efficiently my sessions ran once I started doing this.

Sandyrb

29 Sep 2009, 17:48

I use preproduction as a way to save me and my clients money in the studio. [...] I'm not a bean counter, but if I can iron all that stuff out ahead of time with the band in their rehearsal space, then why the heck not?

Man I *so* agree with you here. I find that the more effort is put into pre-pro, the more efficiently the sessions run by a huge degree. Sure, if they really want to spend the money figuring stuff out in the studio, who am I to complain? I'm being paid by the hour, after all. But I would FAR rather be spending the clients' money in the studio on making a great record, not farting about with stuff they should have gotten done already.

Unless Bill Gates is their uncle or something, in which case show me the money! ;)

Cheers,

Jeremy Krull

29 Sep 2009, 21:18

Something I really like doing with bands is when they make a demo with a click track, granted that is the case...when it's time I like to kinda surprise them and be like "Guys guess what...mute the drums for that and we got our drum-tracking guides!" I would only really do this with a band that recorded to a click obviously, and because sometimes those demos really do get vibed out and sort of convey what the talent wants the track to feel like. One of my very favorite drum sessions I did was when the main dude in the band (the guitarist) went and made these really mocked up demos with programmed drums and when it was time to track drums we had one MONSTER of a set of guide tracks. Part of me always wonders, how can a drummer really get into the song when all he's hearing is the guitar player in the other room playing one part?

Mixwell

30 Sep 2009, 14:25

Great posts guys

I am really enjoying where this discussion has been taken.

tuvokzeta9

23 Nov 2009, 22:05

Of course Jeremy, everything is variable and without detents.

I think PRACTICING hits home most for me.

At the end of the day, if you care about your music, or your art, you'll find a way to develop it, and make it the best [or the worst, your choice] you can muster. If you like what you are doing, your doing it wrong. It all Depends on what you think is good and what you think could be better. I think just about everything could be better, all the time, at least when I'm in the studio. I think this attitude lends itself to the result.

Mixwell,

I think what you are getting at here is, the artist, at some point must abandon the work. Its like its never finished, merely abandon. As an artist it would not make sense to keep trying to perfect something ad nausium. Get it as good as you can without crossing the threshold into "counter-productive land"... kinda like "imagination-land" from South Park. Get it where it needs to be then move on... or you'll never grow as an artist or engineer.

Thanks my take on it... granted I have way less real life experience than ya'all.

Mixwell

23 Nov 2009, 23:01

Mixwell,

I think what you are getting at here is, the artist, at some point must abandon the work. Its like its never finished, merely abandon. As an artist it would not make sense to keep trying to perfect something ad nausium. Get it as good as you can without crossing the threshold into "counter-productive land"... kinda like "imagination-land" from South Park. Get it where it needs to be then move on... or you'll never grow as an artist or engineer.

Thanks my take on it... granted I have way less real life experience than ya'all.

As in to say; the song is done; it is able to be perfectly executed, please lets go record it? I think this points out a good thought: While we plan our proper production, perfectly execute our playing, have the right tools in the right spots, hope the stars will align in the sky, hope the breeze will head northeast, as we chase the perfect take; One might respect the sidelines along the way and not discard any one idea. Sometimes the stuff that's not planned is the most pleasing and refreshing.

Tomasz

24 Nov 2009, 08:50

One might respect the sidelines along the way and not discard any one idea. Sometimes the stuff that's not planned is the most pleasing and refreshing.

Sage advice this is.....

Pato

11 Dec 2009, 00:24

I agree with the bulding thing,

You start with the blueprint; that's your song.
You lay foundations; that's arranging.
You create the basement; that's rehearsing.
You build the ground floor; that's your bed tracks/basics.
Each subsequent floor is an overdub.
The top floor is your final mix, the penthouse suite is mastering.

For me preproduction is checking the most "technical" aspects of the music in the blueprint, foundation and basement:

Checking the lyrics and harmonic structure and the structure of the song itself.

Selecting the tempos, making click/guide tracks and rehearse with those guide tracks so the band can "feel" the song.

If needed record a very basic demo with EZdrummer, bass, a condensed arrengement of guitar or the most important parts and a lead vocal so the band can hear a "complete" song and make final adjustments to the arrengements.

But it all depends on the project. I wouldnt want to kill the vibe of the band by rehearsing to much so they can play to a metronome.

Mike Swanson

13 Dec 2009, 11:25

Have you ever heard this?

Guitarist: Why the f>>k are you playing it like that?
Bassist: What do you mean? I've been playing it like that for two years!
This is what pre-production eliminates.

At that point my studio went from semi-private to private.

ears2thesky

21 Dec 2009, 22:21

Being both well-rehearsed and prepared to perform in the studio environment are ideal. That being said, I think the more money being spent the more important pre-production becomes. I think it is extremely valuable to record rehearsals. They give the band opportunities to iron out arrangement issues as well as retain good spontaneous ideas. Depending on how well-equipped the rehearsal space is, production values and ideas can even be determined before going into the studio. Obviously all of this is about using time efficiently and avoiding train wrecks. If someone expects to get songs completed within a certain time-frame/budget their expectations should be relative to their level of preparation.
With the availability of reasonably priced gear and the informational resources that are now so ubiquitous there is no excuse to go into a recording session unprepared.

iCombs

23 Dec 2009, 21:15

Y'know...as a songwriter, I kinda pre-pro as I write...and I see it as a huge advantage to me. I've got a rig set up so I can program my drums in Superior Drummer (which means they sound awesome provided that I do at least a decent job programming them)...I do my guitars and bass direct with amp sims so I can work quickly and am generally not sweating the finer points of tone...and if I have any vocal ideas, those get built up very quickly.

Also...I don't tend to sit and write the entire song on one instrument. If I have a couple sections, I'll play those in and mock them up individually, and then use Reaper's region function to cut and paste sections together so I can quickly mock up an arrangement and start tweaking sections and transitions...which is all really valuable pre-pro stuff.

I think there's some real value in being able to record a fairly high-quality demo very quickly...the biggest one (at least, IMHO) is that I get to hear the song without having to play it over and over and I get to react to it more like a listener...I get a somewhat more detached perspective that allows me to look at it more like a song and less like MY song.

Battlefrost

12 Jan 2010, 13:53

A most excellent thread...

I am an aspiring producer, specifically for metal...ha ha ha, sorry Sandy, somebody has to do it.

First of all, I make a distinction between who I am producing and who I am engineering. I will engineer just about anyone who walks through the door with cash.

When producing, I only take clients that I have evaluated during rehearsal and feel that it would be a decent fit.

I look first to see if they have actually written songs or just threw a bunch of riffs together. My head hangs low, my blood runs cold, and my hopes are crushed when I go to a rehearsal and hear a band play every riff within the same song at completely different tempos. This sends me running out of the rehearsal space never to return. This indicates to me that the band has no clue how to write cohesive songs that make even the slightest lick of sense.

Anyway, once I have decided to work with a band on a producing level, it usually goes like this.

1. Attend rehearsal. Get familiar with their "vision". Fix any blatant problems.
2. Record live demos.
3. Call a meeting to review and discuss pros and cons about arrangements etc...
4. Make any changes and go back to rehearsal.
5. Creat tempo maps. I will send a click to each musicians cans and have them play live together. We will fine tune the tempos untill everyone aggress it feels right.
6. Use these tracks that were recorded during the tempo map creation as guide tracks for final tracking.

This is just a quick surface explanation, often these steps go very in depth and all problems are exposed and dealt with during this pre-production period.

When final tracking takes place, I usualy track the band live, overdub vocals and solos, and overdub any puch ins or whatever else needs added.

-Charles

antiearth

20 May 2010, 13:55

I once heard Keith Caputo of Life of Agony say, they rehearsed an album for 10 months and recorded it in 2 weeks.......only if everyone was that smart

Mixwell

20 May 2010, 14:01

I once heard Keith Caputo of Life of Agony say, they rehearsed an album for 10 months and recorded it in 2 weeks.......only if everyone was that smart

AMEN

Halfway Competent

20 May 2010, 14:45

With all due respect, my fellow engineers, I'm seeing a trend in this discussion:

- Make sure the band doesn't suck by telling them to solidify their arrangements, practice-practice-practice, and don't count on the technical staff to fix what they should be doing right in the first place.

- Yourself as an engineer is awesome, and you've got it figured out

- Blame their low expectations on a demo made with Pro Tools LE ;)

I'd like to add to this.

I worked with a very talented singer/songwriter out here in Seattle who was not even fully aware that she had an amazing singing voice. She's an engineer's dream, because when she called me to come do a remote session at her house, her songs were prepared, she was practiced, and she nailed the takes. One song, she did the entire vocal track in a continuous take; no punch-ins necessary. (I think it was the third take, but she nailed the entire take.)

It was then that I heard, in another song we'd recorded a week earlier, a faint ringing noise on the vocal track. Listening closely, I realized it was the lights on the dimmer switch. We had to re-take, and it was my fault for not noticing it when I was setting the mic up in the room. I, as an engineer, was not awesome.

On the day that I came out to fix that vocal track, she told me she'd finally decided she was going to do it: She was going to realize a life dream and move to Brooklyn. She was in the midst of packing and arranging an apartment. She was stressed. It showed because she bombed take after take. When she finally sang a take correctly, upon listening back, I could hear the stress in her voice. The song was a light and bouncy country-folk kinda tune... It had to be sung with an effortless ease. All of her preparation and practice didn't matter -- she was stressed and couldn't do it.

On the other hand, the one song we did complete... I posted a sample of it to another forum when someone asked about what kind of results he could expect from a Digi-003R. It got comments such as, "That sounds pretty damn nice," and, "This track is testament to what can be accomplished on a low budget and still achieve professional results." Pro Tools LE, Digi-002 Rack.

I think the most important takeaway from this story:

- If the musician is not "feeling it", it's not going to happen. This means relaxed if they're playing jazz, amped up if they're playing rock... Whatever. If they're stressed or frustrated, they're going to fuck it up. Period.

Sandyrb

20 May 2010, 15:54

I think the most important takeaway from this story:

- If the musician is not "feeling it", it's not going to happen.

Yeah man right on. It's absolutely vital. I always say to bands, if it gets to the point that it's pi**ing you off, we can quit and start fresh in the morning. Music's about fun, passion, heart, artistry, vibe, mo-jo, chemistry etc... if those things aren't happening there's no point even arming the track.

To allude to another point in your fine post, I recently began an album project here with a dude who's a former army major. Very good singer, passable guitarist and an excellent whistler (I kid not). Anyway, being an ex-military type and therefore used to getting organised, he took my advice to be prepared very seriously. On the first day he turned up with a big load of papers detailing lyrics, key and time sigs, chords, tempo and meter changes ... even a full bar count for every song with verse, chorus, bridge etc.! Boy does that ever grease the wheel. As a result, his project's going as smooth as a tube of snake snot. Now if only all clients were so prepared! :)

Cheers,

antiearth

24 May 2010, 13:27

"- If the musician is not "feeling it", it's not going to happen. This means relaxed if they're playing jazz, amped up if they're playing rock... Whatever. If they're stressed or frustrated, they're going to fuck it up. Period."

I completely agree, however if the artist is not prepared it doesn't matter what their attitude is. I spent close to 2 hours recording one verse because the artist couldn't get the words right. Now should I really care how long its takes, maybe not if they are paying by the hour and they want to keep going and going. However I do care, I want to come out with the best product we can and after 2 hours of trying one verse, I certainly dont have much confidence the rest of the session will go smooth and no matter how the engineering and recording sound I have still spent 2 frustrating hours doing nothing but saying, "ok you want to try that again" for the first verse.

Mixwell

24 May 2010, 14:00

antiearth

24 May 2010, 15:40

Very True Brass, and if I can recall correctly I believe you may have been there for this session with me.........hhhmmmmmm

antiearth

25 May 2010, 11:23

here one i loved....brass you know what I am talking about, I love it when someone brings in prerecorded tracks and mix here. You go to open the files and its all just flat worms all across the screen, everything maxed out beyond belief distorting like crazy, what am I supposed to do with that, the tracks brought in were so bad, we tried and tried for hours to try and get a mix that sounded half way decent but there is only so much you can do when what you are working with is already destroyed.

Mixwell

25 May 2010, 11:28

Ian_lv

27 Aug 2010, 07:14

preproduction is where you record demo's of all the songs until their arrangements, tempos, and rhythm sections are correct.

;)

Ian_lv

27 Aug 2010, 07:20

Preproduction is where you spend the time working out the bugs!

NOT LATER

Seaneman

04 Sep 2010, 23:49

Pre-Production is all the stuff you don't get paid for, but they want anyway.

Mixwell

17 Jan 2011, 22:36

Pre-Production is all the stuff you don't get paid for, but they want anyway.

This point is worth bumping.

I would say; the pre-prod dance is most certainly worked into the program when I work with artists on this kind of level. I hope really; unless I am feeling generous with my time and offer the service in return for good karma. Karma is a good thing. I mean, of course this is when I actually care about what I am recording, which is usually always. I work this time [alloted by me] into my rate for the project, after much explanation and education about the best ways to record at our shop or anywhere with me [and we also discuss the artists goals and budgets for my time] its clear that is is plainly more time spent to begin with, but we always take away value no matter what. So you do have to take this into account when you are working with artists that you A) LIKE working with, want your name on their record, and B) are getting paid to make it impressive or at least better than good with your skills.

Seaneman

11 Feb 2011, 01:35

So, my band and I are about to record our second album. Our first record was self produced and recorded by the core five member band, a writing member who doesn't tour, and a close friend who is a lot more adept at engineering and mastering. ( he's the custodian of sonic integrity on all our projects.) We are (politely) seasoned vets and consider ourselves pretty good song editors and tasteful players. In short, we are all chiefs and not enough indians. We had some decent response from the last record, but we also know we'll only get one more shot at it (with money). After much talk with the label, marketing, and radio teams, we decided to bring in a producer this time. We have multiple vocalists and song-writers, so it's been a struggle to present the band in a way that preserves all the diversity, but is still a coherent vision. (something the label can market. It's a business) That's his mandate, and we are up for shutting up, and checking our ego's at the door to keep up our end of the bargain. He's used to having a bottomless budget, and we have a fixed Indie label number. After much deliberating he basically said, "look, we can make a great record on this budget, but only if you guys do all the heavy lifting in pre-production". So the process so far has been:

1- about four months of sending song ideas back and forth. Some of ours, some of theirs, but everything got it's due review. Probably around thirty songs thrown into the arena, but only the strong survived. Now we're down to fourteen, rock solid tracks. Some of the feedback from the production team was pain-full to hear. but the understanding has been, "If you believe in it, fight for it". Make us all believers and we'll keep it in play. Usually after the hurt feelings faded out, we all began to see why our songs weren't making the cuts. Then it became easier to pre-emt the critics with you latter submissions. We all began to see the overall vision for the project taking shape. And see our roles becoming clearer. ( what a relief)

2- another month or two of the band knocking the survivors around in the practice room. "what's a good tempo for this?" "who's voice is strongest in this key?" Lot's of attention to the philosophy of "Subtraction". If it doesn't add to the song, it detracts, ditch it. We cut until we cut too much, then put some back. During this whole step in the process we would get e-mails and phone calls from the production team urging us not to get too set on what we we're doing. Be ready to change and adapt to their feedback. We constantly had to call each other out on bogging down rehearsals with little things that were production ideas. Things that we would have wanted if we were producing the record ourselves. A lesson in restraint and humility.

3- Show time. The production team travels to our rehearsal room for two full days of running through songs with hyper-critical listening. Focus on Tempo, groove, parts, vocal distribution, team chemistry and over-all project philosophy. It was terrifying, and inspiring. On almost every song we had to defend one or both of my favorite things. Bridges and Guitar solos. We cut many of both. Again, the mantra was, "if you believe in this part, make us believers and we'll save it." It worked well. When they left we knew generally what the record was supposed to sound like, and what we had to do to get it there. Our homework was to practice the songs with the new tempos, arrangements, and tweaks in place. We were told again and again to be ready to play them down with or without a click, live, with no vocals. This is a big part of their money saving strategy. I whipped up some click tracks out of midi percussion to give us more to lock on, and prompt us on the changes. We have been doing that for the last week.

4- Next week we head up to NashVegas to cut this puppy. We have seven full days booked, with another week in March/April for whatever needs fixing and mixing. Not a lot of time to do what we want, by most peoples standards. Hopefully we have done enough pre-pro to just walk in and start killing.

I will update on this subject when I get back. If we come out of it in one piece I will try to fill in more details and start naming names.

Seaneman

11 Feb 2011, 01:37

FYI, they did the pre pro Gratis'. hotels and lunches on us.

Mixwell

11 Feb 2011, 11:24

Lot's of attention to the philosophy of "Subtraction". If it doesn't add to the song, it detracts, ditch it. We cut until we cut too much, then put some back.

I can easily relate to this. Call me the cut commander. I am simple minded and like simple music, with sparse non-complex arrangements but hey - anything musical is worth putting your mind to in order to create movement and expression.

Good luck with the sessions! As described in this very thread, a well put together and prepared outfit will always come out of a mission on top of their game. No question, that all of this preparation will push the curve for effort, time, and fun in your favor. And it will be easier to mix.

Sandyrb

11 Feb 2011, 12:19

So, my band and I are about to record our second album.

Really great post Sean, thanks. If I may, I'm going to print it out to help artists which record here to understand the process of pre-production.

Thanks again!

Seaneman

11 Feb 2011, 17:18

I'm here to learn from you guys. Anything I can add that helps you out, pass it on. I am glad to contribute to a thread that doesn't hi-lite my technical ignorance. :)

Gailid

14 Feb 2011, 18:33

So, my band and I are about to record our second album. Our first .............I will update on this subject when I get back. If we come out of it in one piece I will try to fill in more details and start naming names.

What studio/producer are you guys using? Only interested cause I live/work in Nashville and I'm curious if I've heard of them.

Seaneman

14 Feb 2011, 23:39

We're on information lockdown until after the session. Here's a hint though.....

I'm a drummer of little fame going to Nashville to be produced by another drummer,who was recently inducted into the rock-n-roll hall of fame, who's in Nashville to produce another drummer who was already inducted into the Rock-n-roll hall of fame. Enjoy.

Seaneman

25 Feb 2011, 02:31

We'll that was a hell of a thing.........
For the purposes of this thread I'll mostly try to keep on topic, "pre-pro", but here's some background info.
Quickly, we were at two studios, the Sound Emporium studio B for most everything, and the Sound Kitchen "Big Boy" room for some vocals and over-dubs. We are being produced by Stan Lynch and Billy Chapin. My band is "the Villains". Special props to Gordon Hammond who engineered the session at Sound Emporium, a Ninja assassin, fast and silent. No Drama with gear, PT, or attitude, EVER. Now, on to the results of pre-pro.

I'm glad we did what we did. It paid off in un-expected ways, but didn't in others. The first couple of days felt like a disconnect. It took a bit of time to learn to speak a common language. Maybe we took their advice a bit too literally in our practice sessions. Thank god we new what we wanted to do with things like harmony stacks and guitar parts. We worked seven strait days of twelve or more hours to get ten songs in the can. (we were shooting for thirteen) In hindsight we should have spent more time discussing the philosophy behind how we see ourselves as a band. When someone else who has only heard your music on CDs and met you for a few hours interprets it for you, it can feel like an incomplete snapshot to you as creative member. When someone asks you what your trying to do, you better have an answer, a good one, and pronto. A strong producer will fill any void with his/her opinion to keep everyone on task. As it should be, I guess, you have no-one but yourself to blame if you snoozed on it. I thought we had a pretty good focus on our sound, but quickly realized we had never articulated it to them, or each other. We made too many assumptions. Lazy. That said, we never could have accomplished the volume of work that we did if everyone wasn't prepared to go to war. Nobody ever cashed out or whined, band or production team. Without our pre-pro effort I bet we could have tracked about six or seven songs max. Like the man said "Fail to prepare, prepare to fail" It was a total grind, and I'm a bit shell shocked, but positive about the results. I will be glad to go into more depth about the process, which I found unique and interesting, once the album is done and out.