Vocal in My Boxy Room - Best Solution?

[hardtoe]

Hey Guys,

Ok, really need some help with this one - first some context about my background - I have been recording bands in my project studio for about 2 years - before that I was a live sound tech for years and have done a lot of remixing / production (dance) trax (I have lost the feel for sequenced music however, and am now totally addicted to live musicians and classic studio technique, hence my posting here).

I have had good results with various instruments that I have tried to record (which has been pretty varied) and things have gotten better as I have learned more about what the hell I am doing. I have added a lot of treatment to my rooms (tracking and mixing), upgraded my preamps and converters (Adam sold me a Rooster which had a few niggles - he may remember me, I made all the off-colour "cock" jokes in my emails) and I have a good, though not stellar, selection of mics for a variety of tones and sounds.

My tracking room is an "L" shaped with a vaulted ceiling over one section of the L - it is treated with quite a bit of roxul in homemade traps (an insulation designed to absorb sound). Most of the ceiling in the "low" part of the L is covered and I have moveable panels along the walls for a more/less live sound, depending on placement.

See Diagram: (please excuse photoshop hack job) (I SHOULD HAVE NOTED THAT THE ORANGE TRAPS ARE ON THE CEILING AND THE GREEN TRAPS ARE ON THE WALLS)

My problem has been getting a great sounding vocal - early on I tried an LDC in the middle of the "low" L room (I keep this one mostly dead-er acoustically), but I was getting a large mid range honk - I then tried with a reflexion filter - better, but a little "weird"sounding. I have since added the very large trap along the top right of the diagram to help with the mid-honk, and my more current approach has been to use the dead-er room like a large booth with a large "v" baffel in front of the singer - this seems to allow for more of a natural sound (See example A & B).

The other thing I have tried is to have the singer right in the corner with the big "v" baffel behind them and the Reflexion Filter in front, but this almost seems too dry - I have to give a lot of ambience verb just to get these vocal to sit at all (please try to ignore the weak pitch and focus on the tonal quality - see example C & D).


I am just wondering based on the clips of you think that there is more I could do to improve the room or if I should follow one of the techniques over the other - These were tracked with a Rode K2 through the Rooster (I have no other outboard EQ). I do have a NT2-A, and a SM7 as alternatives lead vox mics. I know that the SM7 is better with the room, but I dont always think that it is detailed enough or has quite the right thing. but the K2 is definately more sensitive to all things around it! (The NT2 has the same capsule as the K2, but a lot more middy, which makes any boxiness more obvious)

Please feel free to comment on any other improvements you think I could make....


Thanks a lot recording guru's

Orion

[hardtoe]

Here is a little snippet of the finished track from the first example - the vocal is double tracked - most things recorded through the Rooster into an ensemble (in modern style I am the engineer, mixer and co-producer):

[Mixwell]

Hey Orion, I surly remember you!

I just finished listening your example, and digesting your question. A couple of things I think I can mention that did stand out to me; First off; cool stuff man, the mix sounds really cool. Its brighter, but its pop music and trying to get you off your seat, so its supposed to cut through and offer a lot of presence and articulation. Its sounds balanced though, not overly compressed or ear fatiguing, like other mixes of similar genre and style. With the vocals; I think you should ditch the filter behind the microphone. I hear it making your microphone possibly narrower. While its deader, and certainly tighter, for me it seems to closed in. The SM7 has a really useful rejection of the sides and back and I think it would not really warrant using this device, for me; in my experience. That microphone is amazing for more dynamic performances where you want a drier response. Of course the LDC's will yield a much different response and characteristic here, for different objectives, like mentioned. How high up are the wall panels? You might think about building them into a hinge [mounting 2 high and 2 low randomly along the wall] so you can move them in an out as the need requires. I see you've got a similar design, maybe you can take it a bit further;

Check this out;

Abby Road Style GO-BOS (http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/mercenary-audio/abbey.pdf)

It was useful for Abby Road, and it could be useful at your place, tweaked a bit. I think you might benefit from a more open response. As for the deadness: It seems the noise floor of your studio is quite good, from your examples on my laptop, and the style of music your working on, seems right for the big room to give it some more "reach", as I think you will find less processing overall for a wider vocal presence. At least I would put you in the middle of the room without anything near you. The corner of the room position is really not kosher to me, because you are singing into a corner. I think putting the signer in the middle of the 11" ceiling room, using the omni patten of your NT2A and making sure there was no object within 4 ft of the microphone, might offer a fair measure "more" to work with, within the space your mix. At any rate, I venture that using omni in the middle of the room more, will really open up capture and clean up the low mid to extreme bottom. I tend to stay away from isolating microphones when there are no others around. Also, you might try positioning the microphone to a 50/50 differential between your 11" Ceiling and your 8" ceiling, whilst the null for your cardioid pattern is in the room, and proximity effect is in the small space. Then try it the other way around. I guess you're going to have to experiment until you find the sweet spot for each instrument [and mic with instrument] and performance.

Hope this helps bro,

Good luck and keep up the great work!!!!!

[Jay Fitz]

I think putting the signer in the middle of the 11" ceiling room... [EDIT] Also, you might try positioning the microphone to a 50/50 differential between your 11" Ceiling and your 8" ceiling, whilst the null for your cardioid pattern is in the room, and proximity effect is in the small space.
Good luck and keep up the great work!!!!!

And don't record using Dubly either!!

Perfect Spinal Tap moment!

Good advice Mixwell, just giving you sh*t on the " and the ' for feet and inches. ;)

[Mixwell]

And don't record using Dubly either!!

Perfect Spinal Tap moment!

Good advice Mixwell, just giving you sh*t on the " and the ' for feet and inches. ;)

HIAYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

This one goes to 11 inches, I mean feet.

11 and 8 inch ceilings would suck. Maybe it would be a good home for you Jay, with my power play kids kit.

[hardtoe]

Adam - thanks for the reply - sorry for my slow response - wild weekend compounded by my 21/2 year old son Lazlo waking up right as I wanted to go to bed ;-) Just to keep things clear I am writing my responses in the context of your comments:

I just finished listening your example, and digesting your question. A couple of things I think I can mention that did stand out to me; First off; cool stuff man, the mix sounds really cool.

Thanks - I got pretty lucky that I got to work with a really talented band for my first major production/engineering gig (They are the "Library Voices" and the full length will be out soon - an ep we did previously is on their myspace). I ended up learning A LOT of stuff by doing it wrong and had to approach many of the mixes several times to work through my monitoring/mixing issues....After doing this and several other recording/producing/mixing projects during the last year and a half I feel like I actually know what tracking/mixing is all about (but that I still have a lot to learn of course)

Its brighter, but its pop music and trying to get you off your seat, so its supposed to cut through and offer a lot of presence and articulation. Its sounds balanced though, not overly compressed or ear fatiguing, like other mixes of similar genre and style.

Ha! - The brightness is because I got addicted to the "pentode" distortion on the Rooster - that's what it sounds like when you go nuts with it on all the synths (most of them were just shitty korg mini's for the pads, but they sounded really phenomenal through the Rooster. I will chill out with this on future mixes (luckily the mastering engineer, Kervorkian in NY, did a really good job of taking a real variety of songs produced on a lot of different equipment over a year and making it sound like it belongs together on the same album. )

With the vocals; I think you should ditch the filter behind the microphone. I hear it making your microphone possibly narrower. While its deader, and certainly tighter, for me it seems to closed in. The SM7 has a really useful rejection of the sides and back and I think it would not really warrant using this device, for me; in my experience. That microphone is amazing for more dynamic performances where you want a drier response

I dont use the filter with the SM7 - just for the condensers. All these examples are the Rode k2. It is actually pretty easy to get a good sound with this mic - I just dont want to HAVE to use the SM7 because I cant conquer my room issues.

Of course the LDC's will yield a much different response and characteristic here, for different objectives, like mentioned. How high up are the wall panels?

The walls panels are actually just leaning against the wall in the low ceiling part of the room (from the floor to about 4' high) Maybe I should hang them on the walls to catch higher reflections (seems kind of obvious, but I have just never done this...) Perhaps some kind of diffusion could help as well???

You might think about building them into a hinge [mounting 2 high and 2 low randomly along the wall] so you can move them in an out as the need requires. I see you've got a similar design, maybe you can take it a bit further;

Check this out;

Abby Road Style GO-BOS

It was useful for Abby Road, and it could be useful at your place, tweaked a bit. I think you might benefit from a more open response.

For the first examples I was (A & B - picture 1) I was using a kind of giant hinged "V" gobo about 3 feet in front of the mic (made of 2 - 4' by 7' panels filled with roxul) - mine are fully "soft" absorbtion though, having no hard surfaces on them. Thanks for the Abbey Road designs - I will check them out in more detail before I build any more.

For the second examples (C&D - picture 2) I had the "V" gobo behind the singer in the corner, and the Reflexion filter behind the mic, on the open room side.

As for the deadness: It seems the noise floor of your studio is quite good, from your examples on my laptop, and the style of music your working on, seems right for the big room to give it some more "reach", as I think you will find less processing overall for a wider vocal presence. At least I would put you in the middle of the room without anything near you. The corner of the room position is really not kosher to me, because you are singing into a corner. I think putting the signer in the middle of the 11" ceiling room, using the omni patten of your NT2A and making sure there was no object within 4 ft of the microphone, might offer a fair measure "more" to work with, within the space your mix. At any rate, I venture that using omni in the middle of the room more, will really open up capture and clean up the low mid to extreme bottom. I tend to stay away from isolating microphones when there are no others around. Also, you might try positioning the microphone to a 50/50 differential between your 11" Ceiling and your 8" ceiling, whilst the null for your cardioid pattern is in the room, and proximity effect is in the small space. Then try it the other way around. I guess you're going to have to experiment until you find the sweet spot for each instrument [and mic with instrument] and performance.

Thanks for the tips - I will try all of your suggestions and report back - unfortunately, I am a terrible singer, but I might just have to do some "secret" recording when no one is around, just to test some things out while not in an actual session.

Hope this helps bro,

Good luck and keep up the great work!!!!!

Thanks - really glad I dont have 11" ceilings......