Vocal space via distance?

[Baz]

I'm curious as to what people around here might think was done to get this effect, in respect to the distance of this vocal. This is a clip from Dead Can Dance. There's these very clear, present, upfront vocals on the L/R and then this rather haunting F vocal up the gut. What I really like about the C vocal is not only the contrast to the other 2, but it has an incredibly warm tone, with almost a bit of fur on it. It sounds like she's off the mic I'm guessing 12-18'' but there's still this presence with the ambiance. Fantastic contrast and I'm curious to hear from anyone that may grabbed this kind of take themselves,b/c unfortunately, I haven't.

It's obviously about placement,but any thoughts on what you think may have been used would be interesting too.

EDIT: Fuck it.Forum doesn't allow for measly 900kb uploads....no eg,no joy.carry on..:moon:

[Dan]

EDIT: Fuck it.Forum doesn't allow for measly 900kb uploads....no eg,no joy.carry on..:moon:

Sorry 'bout that. Try it now.

Uploads on audio/video files should be good to about ~2MB.

-Dan.

[seaneldon]

Definitely try getting the file up for context...but...

I think you mighta hit most of the nail with the word "contrast". The center vocal probably stands out the way it does because the natural tones of the other vocals and instruments ALLOW it to stand out. It's DIFFERENT, and your ears easily and immediately pick that out.

Of course, mic selection is a shared-paramount here. The way that certain microphones hear or "translate" distance/height/weight will have final say in whether you get a B- vocal recording or an A+ vocal recording. I once recorded drum overheads with a pair of Brauner VM1KHE and could literally hear how high off the ground the skin of each drum was, I could hear the angles the cymbals were at...trippy shit. Had EVERYTHING to do with the microphones, period.

Of course, I wouldn't use the KHE for "wooly" unless the woman's throat already has that built in.

As for the ambiance/space thing, I like having the vocalist in a large room, and putting an omni mic on the floor about 10-20 feet in front of the singer (how far depends on how much space I want, naturally). This gets blended in with the closer "typical" vocal mic. PZM's can do a lot of good here, but we don't have any in the Meth Lab for some reason. In 30 days, someone should remind me that I want at least one PZM.

Compressing the "far floor" mic liberally with a high ratio, medium attack and medium-slow release will accent the size of the recording space. The decay trail gets a little longer and more apparent...

[Baz]

Thanks Dan.

sean - I get a lot of what you're saying , sans the fact that I've haven't had the pleasure to experience as many different mics as you have for some added scope.

I was given a couple of songs by these guys by a friend who owns a studio I recently recorded a client in. He gave it to me for the "recording chops" more than anything, and to use as some sort of ref material. I really don't know anything about Dead Can Dance but it's obvious that it is very well recorded,and I'd venture to say in a very good sounding room. Your point about using an omni in a large room is something I had thought about with this particular vocal. There's this great contrasting presence,but w/o the weight from a mic in card. It does just sound like a chick standing singing in a room - not up on a mic - but still has characteristics of something with some harmonic distortion giving it some fur. There is reverb obviously, but it doesn't seem that obvious until the tail. Is this thick, yet focused sound maybe something happening from the compressor?

Interested to hear your thoughts.

[seaneldon]

To me this sounds a lot like super-hi-res condensers (think Brauner/Milab/multi-capsule Josephsons...something like that. $$$$$.) and a reverb with a VERY long, gradual tail. If there is ANY natural room ambiance here, I would say that this room is quite present but relatively free of colored reflections. Plenty of outboard reverb here, either way, which kind of masks any natural room verb there may or may not be there. It does sound like it was cut in a bigger room, and not a booth, as only the right vocal appears to be in proximity effect range. The other two seem to be off the mic a fair amount and neither of those vocals have "booth effects" (boxiness, hollow sound, claustrophobic vocal).

The L/R vocals are VERY immediate. On the first listen I thought those were the "lead" voices (are they?) and couldn't quite make out that the center vocal was actually coming from the center. The L voice is a lot thinner sounding than the R voice, and this causes the thinnest voice of them all (the female in the center) to appear to drift to the left.

I would venture a guess that says all three vocals used the same microphone/same chain thanks to similar pillowy/fluffy quality to the low end.

ALL guesses, mind you!

[Benny Grotto]

Not specifically speaking to your example, but to "Vocal space via distance" in general, I'd mention the old techinque of having the vocalist take a step back for each subsequent doubling. Problem there, is, you lose some presence, as well as some body.

My workaround has been to keep the mic position and the vocalist stationary, but change the pickup pattern to an increasingly-wider pattern till you've got him singing into an omni mic. Obviously, this is at the expense of some proximity effect, but that's typically a useful feature as it doesn't cloud up the bottom end. You also maintain the top end, and subtly change the midrange (or not-so-subtly, depending on your mic's per-pickup-pattern frequency response), which can help to sit a lot of vocals in place. And of course, you get increasingly more ambience.

I should mention: at my studio, I cut vocals in the big room with a series of gobos and baffles around the vocalist to tighten things up, with the back end of the mic (or, the dead end of a cardioid mic) "looking" into the open room. Meaning, an opening that looks out into the depth of the room. The technique I described above sorta demands a similarly large room, otherwise you end up with an increasingly boxy stack of background vox.

[BT_]

was doing the step back x amount per double Benny describes,just recently...was using a r44 and started digging into the comp as I doubled.

Three doubles/distances was all I could muster with pleasant results with this method...definitely effective but definitely room dependent..

cool topic..

b
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[SoundEng1]

t2t_5uzCOPc

[Jay Fitz]

Notice that he never questions the direction to move back from the mic...just does what he's asked to do allowing Quincy Jones and the engineer (?) to do their job.

[SoundEng1]

just does what he's asked to do allowing Quincy Jones and the engineer (?) to do their job.

Engineer
Bruce Swedien

[Mixwell]

I've been cutting some back-ups with two figure eight microphones blumlein.

With a Duo, this can be quite interesting, to say the least. I've been doing double pass's with this stereo placement on ONE vocalist projecting into the center, and changing distance and direction per take. It seems to leave MILES of room for me to sit the LD VOX in the center.

I think my license for Stereo is about to get revoked.

[Jeremy Krull]

I think that moving physically back from the mic is a great thing, especially if you have a group of singers (or gang vocals or whatever) around a stereo mic (maybe in a half-circle around it). However, wouldn't it also depend on the sound of the room too as far as being able to execute something like that with satisfactory results?

[Baz]

Cool responses - and thanks for the MJ video link. Wow, that's the shiniest SM7b I've ever seen ;)

I'm aware of mic placement, in respect to distance, from the singer but over the last while, I've found that I'm recording in places that don't lend themselves to adding a lot of room into the picture.

I think the big hurdle to overcome for me at least, is quickly identifying what mic to use on the singer. Now granted, on this last session, I only had 3 real options for this F singer (2247LE, 76' 87i and SM7b.) they all didn't seem to flatter her the way I'd have liked but I ended up going with the 87. the mastering guy suggested that when/if I ever record her again, I dip her in the 700 and 900hz range. I was also surprised at how much this GTQ2 I was using was pushing mids, like really surprised. I think if I had spent more time working on where she was in relation to the mic, I would have ended up in better shape.

[albert]

Of course, it's also always important to make sure the singer is comfortable, and sometimes the straight forward approaches will lend themselves to the best performance.

Showing that video of MJ to many singers would probably help them out.

I especially love it when a singer can get loud enough to make the space react some and let that bleed back in, beautiful with a figure of eight. Of course, you need the right space for the right song, but damn, it can sound beautiful.

Arcade Fire's song Black Mirror comes to mind. But hey, that album probably deserves it's own thread if anyone is into it.

[Ken Morgan]

not to overstate the blatantly obvious, but compression is not your friend when using distance as an ambiance tool...I've screwed up more tracks that I want to admit to trying to compress things in this setting...boo-hiss.

[CaptainHook]

compression is not your friend when using distance as an ambiance tool..

YMMV of course. ;)

Did 2 separate vocals in here last week with plenty of TG12413 on input and
worked a treat. :)

http://www.yorkstreet.co.nz/images/studioa/studioa_large.jpg

[Ken Morgan]

Pretty picture...

How would you get enough compression to kick in and still maintain the sonic illusion of distance? Interesting concept.

[Zachg]

@ CaptainHook: What studio is that? It looks awesome!

(Sorry,slightly OT, but now I'm curious)

[seaneldon]

Pretty picture...

How would you get enough compression to kick in and still maintain the sonic illusion of distance? Interesting concept.

What do you mean by "enough compression", exactly? Turn the knobs till it sounds the way it should.

Faster release times can definitely create the illusion of more "front-to-back" and accent the decay in the room. This has been used to great effect by lots of folks thousands of times over. How it works out depends on the knee of compression. Why do you think "Nuke" mode exists on Distressors?

Absolutely nothing wrong with compressing room mics. Common practice in boatloads of shops.

[Ken Morgan]

What I mean is that by the time the compression seems to have enough signal to actually work, the signal is no longer (to my tastes) in the background

Nothing wrong with squashing room mics - just not what I prefer to do (but its been done)

As for the nuke/all buttons in mode - never used it - probably never will...I don't like extreme anything...but its all good

[seaneldon]

What I mean is that by the time the compression seems to have enough signal to actually work, the signal is no longer (to my tastes) in the background

Huh? I'm still not understanding. Give the compressor "enough" signal, and then attenuate the channel fader to tuck it underneath again, no? Balance is the most powerful tool you have at your disposal. I'm sure you know this...just wanna make sure we're on the same page.

As well, with room mic compression I am typically using attack and release times in the mS range, which is far shorter than our room decay/ambiance time.

Maybe we're talking about two different things.

Nothing wrong with squashing room mics - just not what I prefer to do (but its been done)

I'm not talking about squashing room mics to oblivion, I'm talking about compressing them. Different sport.

As for the nuke/all buttons in mode - never used it - probably never will...I don't like extreme anything...but its all good

I used the "Nuke" on the Distressor as a paramount example because it's a very aggressive knee and 15,000 engineers who own the box know what it sounds like.

Sometimes you've gotta do something extreme and bold to push something over the edge/into the next level/other clichés. There are times when it is called for, and dare I say you're thinking inside a dark box not experimenting with techniques like this every once in a while.

[Sandyrb]

I'm not talking about squashing room mics to oblivion, I'm talking about compressing them. Different sport.

"To oblivion"... like it. ;)

I like to smash the living crap out of one of them (as they say "flat like a witch's teat") and keep another one fairly unsquashy. That way I get to mess about later somewhere between the two. Great fun. :)

Cheers,

[seaneldon]

It's also worth noting that when using a linked stereo compressor on stereo room mics, how the compressor reacts to sudden rises in level/bursts on one side can drastically effect how the track comes out. Definitely a whole 'nother can of worms. In this thread, I think we're (mostly) talking about using one microphone for ambiance in a vocal recording.

And Adam should certainly have his license for stereo revoked. Seconded.

[Ken Morgan]

In this thread, I think we're (mostly) talking about using one microphone for ambiance in a vocal recording.

That's kid of what I've been talking about...as to the other stuff, its other stuff.

Plus if there is (hopefully) one thing we can agree on, its that bluegrass, jazz, western swing, and other less aggressive forms of music really need less aggressive forms of engineering and techniques.

At least I would hope we can agree to this. I don't think a Gretsch Tennessean chunking out Mule Skinner Blues would be right thru a Dual Rectifier, 4 mics, and a couple of Distressors (yes, I tried it :) )

[seaneldon]

Plus if there is (hopefully) one thing we can agree on, its that bluegrass, jazz, western swing, and other less aggressive forms of music really need less aggressive forms of engineering and techniques.

I think it all depends, honestly. If the arrangement of a song in any genre is a little more dense, you might have to squish the living crap out of something to make it "float in mid-air", as I like to say. I do rock'n'roll'ish stuff and frequently like to use a ukulele to make certain chord inversions stand out. When there's two guitars going on on top of this, you pretty much HAVE to squish the crap out of the uke to control the transients and make the instrument heard. As well, inconsistent bass players in ANY style of music usually need to be squashed.

It all depends. The equipment has no idea what kind of music is passing through it.

At least I would hope we can agree to this. I don't think a Gretsch Tennessean chunking out Mule Skinner Blues would be right thru a Dual Rectifier, 4 mics, and a couple of Distressors (yes, I tried it :) )

Definitely agree here. Matter of fact, I'd like to start a petition to ban Dual Rectifiers from recording studios all together.

[Jeremy Krull]

Matter of fact, I'd like to start a petition to ban Dual Rectifiers from recording studios all together.

+1000

the Diamond Plate Chainsaw Special I've called it for a while.

this thread has been a cool read so far I think.

[Mixwell]

Dual rectifiers sound like someone throwing mud inside your ear holes.

POOP

[Jeremy Krull]

Dual rectifiers sound like someone throwing mud inside your ear holes.

POOP

would add even more validity to the "rectumfryer" name...

slightly back on topic...I definitely like using compression as a sort of sculpting tool to enhance the perceived distance from the mic (like in the classic situation of hitting drum room mics with compression to simulate that longer tail at the end). I've never tried anything like this with a vocal, but now I'm definitely curious to, although I would think it still depends mainly on the vocalist's physical distance from the microphone.

this is why experimenting rules.

[Mixwell]

would add even more validity to the "rectumfryer" name...

slightly back on topic...I definitely like using compression as a sort of sculpting tool to enhance the perceived distance from the mic (like in the classic situation of hitting drum room mics with compression to simulate that longer tail at the end). I've never tried anything like this with a vocal, but now I'm definitely curious to, although I would think it still depends mainly on the vocalist's physical distance from the microphone.

this is why experimenting rules.

It was good enough for some Bowie records.....

Try two microphones one close, one distant, but not so distant.

Compress the snot out of the distant and blend to taste, and even automate at will.

[Jeremy Krull]

It was good enough for some Bowie records.....

Try two microphones one close, one distant, but not so distant.

Compress the snot out of the distant and blend to taste, and even automate at will.

I bet in that same setup, if you subbed out the compressor for a Transient Designer and messed with turning the Sustain control up really high it'd yield some cool results...either way...that sounds very neat, looking forward to trying it.

[pauly]

"To oblivion"... like it. ;)

I like to smash the living crap out of one of them (as they say "flat like a witch's teat") and keep another one fairly unsquashy. That way I get to mess about later somewhere between the two. Great fun. :)

Cheers,

im with sandy, smash the:finger:out of it. mix in a the dry and its smoother than a babies:moon:.

[CaptainHook]

@ CaptainHook: What studio is that? It looks awesome!


York St studios in New Zealand. I'm lucky enough to be the head engineer here. :)

York St Studios. (http://www.yorkstreet.co.nz/studioa.php)

[CaptainHook]

Definitely agree here. Matter of fact, I'd like to start a petition to ban Dual Rectifiers from recording studios all together.

I do however think single rectifiers sound drastically different to the duals/triples
and find them very usable for all sorts.

[Adam The Truck Driver]

@ CaptainHook: What studio is that? It looks awesome!

(Sorry,slightly OT, but now I'm curious)

I'm thinking AR...that stair case going up to the control room. And I'm wrong.
It must be modeled after AR.

[seaneldon]

York St studios in New Zealand. I'm lucky enough to be the head engineer here. :)

York St Studios. (http://www.yorkstreet.co.nz/studioa.php)

Pardon me, but that console needs its own thread.

[Sandyrb]

I do however think single rectifiers sound drastically different to the duals/triples and find them very usable for all sorts.

I kinda like the Recording Rectifier too, the rack-mount model, but best of all through a different power amp. I used to use a Bryston 3B for this, believe it or not, through a Marshall cab. I got some great results that way.

But Boogies are nonetheless not in my top favorite amps list. ;)

Cheers,

[Tomasz]

But Boogies are nonetheless not in my top favorite amps list. ;)

It's quite unfortunate that many guitar players use the "RONCO" method with the dual rectifier... the set it and forget it method... this has resulted in a "played out" and overdone bit...
I have heard and used boogies (all types) with great satisfaction.. there are a couple tricks that few users employ that allow these amps to really shine. particularly early rectifiers including the tremoverb... I can and will elaborate if prompted....

On the flip side, I have grown tired of the "Orange" amp craze that is the rage with the metal/stoner/doom bands. It's going the way of the dual rec, only faster. players get one and think "it's awesome without actually listening to it or dialing it in... much like mics and preamps, the guitar contributes considerable mojo here and is often forgotten...
sorry if I continued the OT surge...

[Mixwell]

players get one and think "it's awesome without actually listening to it or dialing it in...

Without actually listening to it would be good for me.

[Sandyrb]

I have grown tired of the "Orange" amp craze that is the rage with the metal/stoner/doom bands.

I totally agree. I don't think Orange - much as I like them - are the right sound for metal at all. I think they're much better suited to a more traditional rock approach. Anyway... I'm not entirely sure what this has to do with "vocal space via distance" so perhaps I should shut up. :)

Cheers,

[Ken Morgan]

Remember that Wishbone Ash used Orange amps for half a million years or so (it seems), and they were anything BUT metal/stoner/doom...so its not the amp - its the settings, the techniques, and mostly the player (or the people plugged into them, player may be too kind of a word)

Some people can make a rock sound like crap.

[CaptainHook]

I'm thinking AR...that stair case going up to the control room. And I'm wrong.
It must be modeled after AR.

AR?

(forgive my ignorance being in little ole NZ)

Pardon me, but that console needs its own thread.

Haha. It IS very nice. I just wish it had flying faders or some automation.
Doing stems for an hour at the end of a long day sucks. :(