Pro Tools alternatives

[Halfway Competent]

OK folks,

Never thought I'd see the day where I kissed off my beloved Pro Tools... But I'm getting seriously frustrated. Not with the workflow -- I think that's great. Not with the sound -- I think it's just fine.

No, my beef is that Avid is apparently incapable of writing a solid piece of software. I've procured Pro Tools LE 8.0.3 for my new Windows 7 machines; supposedly there is beta support for Windows 7 with the beta 8.0.4 hardware drivers.

Both of my Win7 machines blue-screen when I run Pro Tools. Or I get a message about clock error. Users on the D.U.C. say that you need specific Firewire chipsets in your computer, and you cannot have mismatched RAM (are you effing kidding me?), etc. No other piece of Windows A/V editing software I've used has any problems like this.

So, Nuendo has garnered some rave reviews from those who use it. I'm used to the Pro Tools Software+Hardware solution, so I've no idea what I need as far as hardware to get audio into a computer running Nuendo (or any other DAW for that matter).

Hey, Avid: :finger: :poo:

[Sandyrb]

my beef is that Avid is apparently incapable of writing a solid piece of software.
Sorry to hear of your bad experience mate. :( There's a reason why we're still running PT7. I am unhappy with the way 8 has behaved since word one. Mine at home won't run at all and we have too many important projects in progress at the studio to risk the 'upgrade'. I am also quite a Pro Tools fan because I like the speed at which it allows me to work but I have discovered that newer isn't always better.

So, Nuendo has garnered some rave reviews from those who use it.
I understand that Nuendo is quite good to use, however a word of caution: The rendering engine is very unkind to your low bass response. If you want further explanation I'll be glad to offer it. :)

Cheers,

[Halfway Competent]

engine is very unkind to your low bass response. If you want further explanation I'll be glad to offer it. :)

Cheers,

Hmmm, do tell... Always interested to hear what's up with what.

[Mo Facta]

I've used Cubase/Nuendo for the last 12 odd years.

Look, just like PT, there are no "perfect" DAW's. All of them have at least a couple of bugs here and there, especially new releases, which they then aspire to fix in further upgrade patches. That is something all of us have to deal with.

Do I use Cubase because I think it's "better" than PT? No. It's just what I learned and grew up on so it has formed an integral part of my workflow.

I know the biggest problem that has been faced in the preceeding years has been project interchangability. I'd say that if you're working with others and they use PT, just stick with it. If that's not an issue for you, then fine, move on.

And yes, this firewire chipset nonsense and the other issues you describe can make you want to blow it all away with a nicely oiled Winchester. Have you tried a re-install and a system optimisation? I'd go that route before I just threw away a program that I had invested hours and hours learning how to use competantly (even if it's halfway ;)).

I'm going to end with a quote from a guy from another forum across the tracks:

Professional is an attitude and a skillset, not a platform.

That sums it up for me. I realise we're not in a "better" debate, but as you said yourself, you like the sound and the workflow, so I'd think twice before giving that up. They're two VERY important aspects to getting great, consistent results.

Cheers :)

PS. Yeah, any internal bouncedown/rendering is dodgey and should be avoided. Even with PT :p

[Zachg]

Im just gonna through this out there, but my copy of Mackie Tracktion 3 is more stable then the newer versions of PT 8...
and the manual for Tracktion basicly said: we don't guarantee this product to work at all.

PT 8.0.3 hasn't been good to me, on launch i get dae error-1115 (incompatible system), two reboots later it works perfect. 8.0.1 hates Superior Drummer 2.2 and The Metal Foundry... cs2 is a little better, barely, just one reboot now.

8.0.0 cs2 was totally stable for me though. :confused:

Havent used any other DAWs on PC, just Mac (Logic and Soundtrack Pro) so don't really know what to say there... reaper is supposed to be good and SawStudio is supposed to be great, but it's in the same price bracket as Nuendo 1k+ for the full version. Never used either tho...

[Halfway Competent]

Avid just announced the release of PTLE 8.0.4, with new Windows drivers that "expands the number of compatible laptops and desktops". Let's see if this fixes anything... Hopefully!

[Sandyrb]

Hmmm, do tell... Always interested to hear what's up with what.

K. First off, let me say I'm definitely NOT anti-Cubase; I've used Cubase since version 1.02 and still do all my MIDI tracks on it because it's basically a damn fine sequencer. But anyway... Back in the old country, when I was doing the mastering thing, I used to get mixes via a certain dance label from a certain production team. It wasn't long before I noticed a problem; there being very little bass below about 55Hz. I thought at first that they were high-pass filtering stuff but then... no... this is dancey material! That bass should be throbbing like a horny elephant on viagra. :)

Then another bunch of work arrived from another place and it had the same spectral artifact... an unusually sharp roll-off at 55Hz. To cut a long story and a bit of detective work short, they were both using Cubase.

Then one day I woke up and Canada was outside. :)

Once I'd got settled into a studio here, I decided to do a bit of a test. I sent 24/48 white noise files to all my friends with their different DAWs and asked them just to render the files and send 'em back. The list included all the usual suspects; PTLE, PTHD, DP, Cubase, Nuendo, Cool Edit Pro, Sonar, Logic, etc., etc. Sure enough, when I got the files back, the ones rendered on Steinberg's software *all* had the same artifact. So there you go. Now, I'm not suggesting that they haven't fixed it in the interim (presuming they even knew it was there) but nonetheless it was something of a worrying revelation.

As an aside, though, this led me into some critical listening tests which, although more limited in scale, were every bit as interesting. I mean, why talk dBs and Hz when you can make a qualitative assessment using your ears? So what I did was to create precisely the same mix in several DAWs, of course using no plugins or anything like that. Literally faders and pans only on some already-printed tracks, just to test the rendering engine.

I didn't have PTLE at home at the time but when I made an A/B of the same mix in Cubase and Cool Edit Pro, the difference was staggering. And, without wanting to egregiously insult anyone's choice, well, let's just say that's when I stopped even mixing soft synths in my Cubase.

Actually, out of the systems I tried, the best sounding - to my own ear, at any rate - were Cool Edit Pro and PTHD. But you know what else I discovered... that I guess we all really knew all along... By far the best rendering engine of all is a lovely great big old analogue mixing console! :)

Anyway mate I've rambled on a bit... hope this helps. :)

Cheers,

[Zachg]

Avid just announced the release of PTLE 8.0.4, with new Windows drivers that "expands the number of compatible laptops and desktops". Let's see if this fixes anything... Hopefully!

Im currently installing 8.0.4, cant be worse than 8.0.3. It's awfully hard to work when all you get is clock errors... w/ an Mbox mini, on internal clock...

Hows your update working? Is it any better?

Zach

[Dan]

Power was out last night, so I didn't get to install 8.0.4 until this morning. It seems to have taken care of the recurring 6086 error, but now I get a 6085 error, which has to do with buffer underruns. I got some new mobo drivers and did some system tweaks just before I left - will report back after this evening's battery of test.

-Dan.

[Halfway Competent]

I've yet to install 8.0.4. I'll be sure to report on it once I've done so!

[pauly]

i would say that nuendo is the most stable daw available. when i'm not recording ( i use logic), i assist at my buddies place. nuendo-apoggee at 88.2, i have been doing so for about a year and we have not had any failure no error, glitch, crash nothing. normal track counts 24-32 live.

[Halfway Competent]

It works!! There are audio hiccups here and there, but I believe that to be my laptop at fault; it does this with MP3s thru its internal soundcard and a Presonus Firebox that I use for just listening to music.

[Halfway Competent]

i would say that nuendo is the most stable daw available. when i'm not recording ( i use logic), i assist at my buddies place. nuendo-apoggee at 88.2, i have been doing so for about a year and we have not had any failure no error, glitch, crash nothing. normal track counts 24-32 live.

When ProTools works, it works. I've recorded several live concerts with Pro Tools with nary a glitch. (Granted, I expect this.)

With the audio hiccups on my laptop, though, I'm hesitant to use it for anything. I think it's a faulty design with the laptop, though, since all audio interfaces (including its internal soundcard) have done that when playing back MP3s and such from it. Has something to do with the graphics chipset and/or CPU switching between high and low power modes, or so the forums say. FAIL.

Speaking of which, does anyone have any recommendation on Windows laptops that don't do this, and work with PTLE?

[Dan]

It works!! There are audio hiccups here and there

That's more-or-less my experience. The 6086 errors are gone (something to do with usb chipset compatibility, I think), but as stated before, I get 6085 buffer underrun errors, which I can correct by jacking the hw buffer up really high. There's no reason I should need the buffer at 2048+ samples, but it gets the job done. For what I'm doing, it doesn't really matter.

-Dan.

[Battlefrost]

I was actually trained on Cubase while taking a college course here in San Diego. A few of my buddys are using Pro Tools of course. But for whatever reason, I just fell in love with SONAR. The work flow simply fits my style perfectly. I built a custom PC to run it, along with RME Fireface 800 interface and varios preamps and outboard compressors and everything just works. I have not A/B a rendering test like Sandy, but I would hope that SONAR does a decent job compared to Pro Tools and Cool Edit Pro as mentioned above.

But in the end it is just a tool. I happen to like this tool for digital editing of audio. Perhaps my flavor will change in the future, but for now I am happy with what I have. I did download a trial version of Reaper which I thought was pretty cool. But I am not replace SONAR anytime soon. Just my thoughts, thanks.

[Mixwell]

As fas as software?? Anything else.

Maybe RME PCI-e cards with good ADA converters and anything else.

Supposedly the SSL MX4 card (http://www.solid-state-logic.com/music/xlogic%20mx4/#) should be pretty cool with their 24 banger box converter box.

There is also the Lynx System which I think offers huge bang for the dollar considering the build/sonic quality of their products. An AES16e - Aurora 16 System with any DAW of your choice works great and sounds great. It is highly recommend here at Mercenary.

[Halfway Competent]

As fas as software?? Anything else.

Maybe RME PCI-e cards with good ADA converters and anything else.

Supposedly the SSL MX4 card (http://www.solid-state-logic.com/music/xlogic%20mx4/#) should be pretty cool with their 24 banger box converter box.

There is also the Lynx System which I think offers huge bang for the dollar considering the build/sonic quality of their products. An AES16e - Aurora 16 System with any DAW of your choice works great and sounds great. It is highly recommend here at Mercenary.

The SSL stuff looks compelling. The AlphaLink MADI-AX in particular... 24 channels of analog I/O, to ADAT and/or MADI.

In the near term, I want some higher-quality converters so that I can pipe more analog into my 002R via ADAT, so I can get rid of the DigiMax LT. In the long term, I want the possibility to upgrade to PTHD (or another similar DAW). With their MADI-to-HD box, this looks doable. And it's priced a lot better than the Apogee stuff, at $2500 (though the PTHD-MADI box is $3900!!).

Hmm...

Sonar looks interesting. I might download a free trial and give it a look-see.

[Mixwell]

The SSL stuff looks compelling. The AlphaLink MADI-AX in particular... 24 channels of analog I/O, to ADAT and/or MADI.

In the near term, I want some higher-quality converters so that I can pipe more analog into my 002R via ADAT, so I can get rid of the DigiMax LT. In the long term, I want the possibility to upgrade to PTHD (or another similar DAW). With their MADI-to-HD box, this looks doable. And it's priced a lot better than the Apogee stuff, at $2500 (though the PTHD-MADI box is $3900!!).

Hmm...

Sonar looks interesting. I might download a free trial and give it a look-see.

Also - check SOUNDSCAPE (http://www.solid-state-logic.com/music/soundscape/) - SSL's DAW.

Could be the ticket with a SSL 24 Channel System.

[Halfway Competent]

Hmm... Rather compelling solution. So, $4k for the MX4 card + Alphalink AX. Plus however much Soundscape costs. Plus $6k for a couple more sets of SCA pres. $10k... *sigh* Haha

[Mixwell]

Adam - I think Soundscape is under $500 - but don't quote me on that.

We're trying to get the SSL hardware up on the site with different packages and fittings for different environments. More to come.

[albert]

Soundscape looks great, and I am downloading it right now to check it out.

Anyway, I have extensively used Digital Performer, Pro Tools, and Cubase/Nuendo. I must say that Logic definitely ranks highest in all the attributes that are important to me.

Just because I didn't name many other DAWs does not mean that I think they are not valuable pieces of software, I just believe Logic is exactly what I need.