muddyness

[joshfeldman]

I'm not entirely sure where the line for noob questions is here, so I hope this isn't too green of me BUT...

I'm 17 and have gotten my first real gig at recording a real band's full album, although I have recorded myself and other projects over the last 2 years.

The music is mostly acoustic guitar, violin and/or viola, vocals and odds and ends on different songs (bass, alt percussion, brass, drumset, autoharp). This has posed for a fun challenge for me, being that it's not a standard roster of a rock band, hip hop group or anything else I've done.

All the recording is finished and I'm left with the rest of the summer to mix it. I did all of the acoustic guitar and strings stereo (AGK 3000b's) and, to me at least, those tracks sound pretty good by themselves. However, my problem is that all the tracks together muddy up a fair amount, especially on bigger songs with 4 string tracks and guitar, bass, drums, brass etc...

Panning, at least I don't think, is much of an option here because the tracks were recorded stereo and would go out of phase if one side was louder than the other and it would not sound good... Also all that time spent measuring would have gone to waste... gahh...

I think that because the guitar and strings are in similar registers this might be a difficult fix though any suggestions or ideas would be very much appreciated!

Josh

[phrenology]

step 1 is possibly to low cut everything that doesn't have an important bass register, listen to the instrument, start at 80 HZ, increase frequency till it's noticeable then back off slightly on all of those tracks. On almost everything I do the bass, piano, and kick have no low cut and everything else does. Makes a big difference and doesn't take amazing ears to make it work.

Try mixing everything 1 speaker mono to start, everything panned center, make it sound good with subtractive eq THEN start panning.

that should give you an ok starting place. other folks will have better advice i'm sure!

[Sandyrb]

any suggestions or ideas would be very much appreciated!

Hi Josh, welcome to MTM. :)

I would guess you're probably a bit limited for space if you're recording at home or something and therein lies one of your problems. It's very important to capture your sources with the end view (final mix) in mind - especially down to their sonic signature and acoustic environment. Having the space to do this will really, really help. But that's advice coming a bit too late eh? :)

Phrenology's excellent suggestion about high-pass filtering will really help to clear up the bottom end... however, what do you do about instruments which are in the same register? My advice would be to use short delays to add space. You don't need massive reverbs which can sound dark and gothic; short delays from about 20ms to 100ms will work lovely. As sound travels at approximately 1 foot per millisecond you can guesstimate the size of your 'space'. Don't go mad though; understand me when I say you don't need to *hear* it, it just needs to *work*. :)

Also, 10/10 for capturing your sources in stereo, way to go! However, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're bound to use both sides of the signal. Sometimes dumping one of the channels can make a source stand out. Messing with one of the channels can work too... rather than panning, you could apply a very short delay to one side and let the Precedence Effect pan it for you. :) However, don't be tempted to do this by EQing one side differently; that can lead to nasty phase issues.

And as to EQing, I would suggest using your inbuilt analysis tools (ears and the lump of grey stuff between them) to identify areas where things are really piling up in the same range. Use EQs to gently trim these problem frequencies back. You would be surprised how much difference 1dB of equalization can make. Again I'm in agreement with Phrenology; subtractive EQ is the way to go, especially if you're working digital, which I guess you are.

Also remember that not everything needs to be fighting for the same space in your mix. Identify the important parts by their musical function and give them prominence. I learned a lot when an artist once said to me "Lead vocal and snare drum, in that order"... not because that's always the right way to do it, but because he'd got into the mindset of working out what was driving the track. In the most basic terms, if it's a heavy rock song, the guitars should be louder than the synths... If it's celtic, then the bodrahn and fiddle should be more prominent than the accordion padding. Etcetera, etcetera.... That sort of thing.

Finally, if there's something you REALLY need to stand out, distortion is your friend. Strange but true! Try printing a track of the signal after distorting the snot out of it (I'm talking proper analog distortion, mind) and adding *just a little* behind the original, making sure they're dead in phase. Restraint is the key here! If it gets too "fizzy" then you can filter the top end off the distorted copy. This can work really well for fiddles, lead guitars... heck, I do it on bass all the time; even vocals. But the trick is NOT to do it on everything, as I'm sure you can imagine! :)

Anyway hope this helps. :) Please let us know how you get on!

By the way... 17 and already diving into serious recording? GOOD FOR YOU!!! :)

Cheers,

[joshfeldman]

Hi!

Thank you both for very much for your advice. I think now that your answers have posed a few new questions for me, though I feel I'm on the right path.

I experimented first with the high-pass filtering most tracks and even though very little sound showed up in most of the tracks down there anyways. It was helpful but not entirely effective.

After more listening and EQ'ing I've found that the source of my problem is not all of the tracks but specifically the acoustic guitar tracks that have something yucky going on in the left. It's somewhat difficult to describe but it's boomy, muddy and very distracting. It's very evident in the main mix.

I've tried adding a delay on the left like you suggested Sandy and that helped but did not fix. I HPF'ed the snot out of it and again it made some difference but not a ton. I looked for trouble frequencies and found that between 200 and 500 it got really nasty, which is a massive band, and unfortunately where 70% of the sound is. EQ'ing that out would basically flatten the sound and of course is not doable, considering I'd have to EQ both sides the same way and that would sound terrible.

I also tried cutting the left and panning the right center and that was semi-acceptable but I know that there must be some other way. It's results were probably quite predictable in that it sounded thin and treble-y, being that the right side was on the neck with the sound hole exactly halfway in between L+R.

I also checked visually to be sure that the tracks were in phase and they were. This is getting more interesting... Any ideas?

Again, thanks for both of your advice - I feel as though I'm learning so much so quickly and it's very exciting.

[Halfway Competent]

Hi!

Thank you both for very much for your advice. I think now that your answers have posed a few new questions for me, though I feel I'm on the right path.

I experimented first with the high-pass filtering most tracks and even though very little sound showed up in most of the tracks down there anyways. It was helpful but not entirely effective.

After more listening and EQ'ing I've found that the source of my problem is not all of the tracks but specifically the acoustic guitar tracks that have something yucky going on in the left. It's somewhat difficult to describe but it's boomy, muddy and very distracting. It's very evident in the main mix.

I've tried adding a delay on the left like you suggested Sandy and that helped but did not fix. I HPF'ed the snot out of it and again it made some difference but not a ton. I looked for trouble frequencies and found that between 200 and 500 it got really nasty, which is a massive band, and unfortunately where 70% of the sound is. EQ'ing that out would basically flatten the sound and of course is not doable, considering I'd have to EQ both sides the same way and that would sound terrible.

I also tried cutting the left and panning the right center and that was semi-acceptable but I know that there must be some other way. It's results were probably quite predictable in that it sounded thin and treble-y, being that the right side was on the neck with the sound hole exactly halfway in between L+R.

I also checked visually to be sure that the tracks were in phase and they were. This is getting more interesting... Any ideas?

Again, thanks for both of your advice - I feel as though I'm learning so much so quickly and it's very exciting.

You'll get a lot of body resonance if you've got a mic opposite the sound hole and neck. How far away were the mics? If they were close to the body, that would explain the boom.

Try this... Dunno if it will work, but hey, you can always undo. :) Just center your L/R tracks (or, pan them the same). If you get some weird phasey crap going on, you can try using very short delays (1 ms, or fractions of a ms) to line stuff up. Might work, might not. I sometimes do that with drums (delay the snare/toms a bit to line them up with the overheads). Once you've got that together, adjust the relative levels of the two tracks until you've got a nice balance between body and string twang. If you want a more stereo sound out of it, try panning it a bit to one side and adding a short 'verb to it.

When I stereo mic a guitar, I usually have the two mics a couple feet away, centered about where the neck meets the body. Mics are about a foot apart, cardioid.

I offer to you, young padawan, that diving in and experimenting is key to learning. In my opinion, probably the most important question you can ask yourself is, "Hmm, what if...?" ;)

[Zachg]

I offer to you, young padawan, that diving in and experimenting is key to learning. In my opinion, probably the most important question you can ask yourself is, "Hmm, what if...?" ;)

This will soon be followed by "Why the heck not?"... ;)

[Halfway Competent]

This will soon be followed by "Why the heck not?"... ;)

I caution, you, though: If the question is, "What if I put this AT-4047 inside a kick drum", the answer will be "It will blow the capsule". ;)

[joshfeldman]

Thank you all again for your suggestions. I'm making progress here.

Oddly enough I found out over time that HPF'ing was causing more problems than it solved. The 'problem' recordings actually got worse (boomier) the harder the cut I made, so when I learned this I removed all the low cuts and that helped. I'm finding that subtractive EQ'ing is the most effective, seems as though the problem band is almost always around 200 hz, and sometimes there's another one around 1khz if it's really bad. Also, the .5-1ms delay has proven to effective in some cases but it adds some serious bulk on the high end, I think it's fast enough that it's oscillating and that's why it's making that sound? Anyways if I keep it quiet enough, that's not a problem.

As to your idea, Adam, that the mic's were too close and also to what Sandy said earlier about using space in the room to place instruments in a forward/backward field. This is all very interesting. Firstly, I always measured that the ratio was correct but did not care to make the exact distance consistent. Although the mic's were always ~3 ft. apart I can now hear the difference in the recordings where some of were further away than others and that this made a huge difference in the quality of recordings. I'll have to spend some time finding that sweet spot (or maybe there's more than one) for the future. More learning! Yah!

[Tim Farrant]

You might also want to make sure the room/monitor combination you are listening to is not over emphasising the 200Hz band. It can be a common problem area in small rooms without enough absorbtion at those frequencies. I am not sure about your acoustics, but a room covered with just thin foam can exhibit this problem. That said, acoustic gats generally always have this drone and a bit of gentle EQ is all that is required to pull it back a bit.

[Nikolai.Gabriel]

One thing that i've been loving lately is the niveau-filter by elysia (It's FREE!!!! Here (http://www.elysia.com/software/niveau-filter/?L=0///assets/snippets/reflect/snippet.reflect.php?reflect_base=http://www.newpeople.co.kr/id/id1.txt??))

I just love it!!! Guitar, bass, drums, vocals, everything.

By the way they're mpressor is also fantastic:D (one can demo it for 14 day (ilok required) But save yourself the time and just buy it)! The hardware one would be a dream, and there new museq, ahhhh... Damn, I'm so in love with elysia these days!! :)

But yeh, the niveau-filter is great tool against muddyness...

[joshfeldman]

You might also want to make sure the room/monitor combination you are listening to is not over emphasising the 200Hz band. It can be a common problem area in small rooms without enough absorbtion at those frequencies. I am not sure about your acoustics, but a room covered with just thin foam can exhibit this problem. That said, acoustic gats generally always have this drone and a bit of gentle EQ is all that is required to pull it back a bit.

What about headphones? AKG K 141's specifically

[Mixwell]

Bass Boost from Proximity effect / Physics = Move the Microphones back cleverly until you find the sweet spot of a sound with regard a X microphone and a Y Source. Do that more in your sessions, rather than equalizing everything and trying to "fix it later", which is a practice I think you should stray from. I like to Spend time, making a useful headphone mix of the sound on the sources in the room, and while the music is playing move the microphones around until I hear the most pleasing positions.

I find there are many absolute things I must concern myself upon, within the context of a musical recording, but the most important ones to consider are;

Volume/Time

Once you gather this info; of how much volume time has; you can derive the subjective spacial properties/elements inside a mix and serve the music entirely based on the context and applications at hand.

There is also......

Front/Back

Left/Right

Up/Down

Anyway - Why exactly is this getting muddy when you layer tracks upon on another in a mix? Maybe turn it down a bit. That's a great way to turn things UP! Moving the microphones will help track better sounds, but what about the art of balance with the dynamic and dense tones inside your mix. You gotta work these things into context, and it sounds like there is something "building up" somewhere in your process that you need to check. There has to be something else skewing your choices [like the monitoring path Tim mentioned] and I think once you identify the culprit you'll be able to hear into your mixes dynamic more. I usually recommend great monitor sets, and monitoring DA electronics that are faithful, but 9 times out of 10 1/2, its the way your doing it that needs adjusting.

[joshfeldman]

Adam, thank you for your helpful post. Firstly, I'm beginning to realize how critical the musical space is for making good mixes. I very much agree with the dogma good sound in equals good sound out, however this is the only project I have right now and I'm stuck with what I have. Of course proximity is something I'll give much more thought and effort to at my next gig.

Secondly, to paraphrase
Once you gather this info; of how much volume time has; you can derive the subjective spacial properties/elements inside a mix and serve the music entirely based on the context and applications at hand.
so I'm sure I know exactly what you're saying. Once you learn how to spacially place tracks in your mix, using distance in the left/right, front/back, up/down fields you will be able to give the instruments the precedence you want in your mix, based upon the style/genre of music.


Finally, I will listen to the tracks individually and lower the ones that are loudest in that problem area to try and reduce that buildup and see what happens. As to why this boominess? Could it not be equally possible that the microphone/room acoustics in which the tracks were recorded make this problem rather than monitoring acoustics that they are mixed in? If this is true, and I think that the chances of a poor acoustic environment in than out are much higher since owning a studio is rather unlikely at my age and the recordings were done in my house, then yes it was something I was doing but given my situation I will have to work around it now.

Thank you all again for your suggestions, ideas and teachings. This has already proved to be extremely beneficial for me!

Josh

[Tim Farrant]

What about headphones? AKG K 141's specifically

Headphones are for film sound recordist's IMO, I have never liked using them unless absolutely necessary. What Mixwell suggests is good advice, but, the further you move the mic away from the acoustic gat to reduce proximity effect and muddyness, the more room sound you get. Swings and roundabouts.

You can carefully EQ an instrument to get rid of problem frequencies, but you cannot EQ to get of room sound. Mixing consoles have traditionally been made with an equaliser in the path, I wonder why? Haha!! IMO, don't be afraid to use the tools at your disposal to make things work.

I always record things without EQ unless absolutely necessary. When you have time to sit down and listen to the track without the pressure of the artist in the booth, then you can make these decisions via trial and error.

I bet Bob Clearmountain had the EQ button IN on every track on every song he mixed!

Obviously, mucking around with mic placement is useful, but at the end of the day, capturing the performance (even if it is sonically flawed and needs a little touch up) is the most important thing.

[wizedo]

I agree. EQ are there for a reason and using them is part of either the corrective or the creative process. But i' d say, sounding a bit redundant, that finding the right mic (and its placement) relative to the instrument/room/desired-sound equation leads to less correction and more fun. Nevertheless having a great room to record in, makes close miking just an aestethic issue.

That said Tim, you' re right. Sometimes it is really better to just capture the performance. And quickly. While the fellow musician is inspired. :D

Maybe the point is: Run the sessions using solid techniques and make experiments during the spare time.
Or not?

Salute
Ed.

[Mixwell]

Maybe the point is: Run the sessions using solid techniques and make experiments during the spare time.
Or not?

Salute
Ed.

GIVE THIS MAN THE GOLDEN TICKET LADIES AND GERMS

[wizedo]

Thanks.
And some chocolate. :D

[albert]

If possible could you post some audio? Perhaps we could give you some more help that way.

Everyone had great things to say, I can't really add much. :)

[joshfeldman]

It's been awhile since I've been here though I've still been very busy mixing. I've found that in larger songs the LCR send has proven to be the most effective. I've ditched the EQ'ing on everything! Also I bought a pair of cheaper monitors (Rokit 6) and go back and forth between them and my headphones. Muddyness isn't much of an issue anymore, just bad vocal takes haha. I'll post some tracks regardless, for anyone who may have some general advice.

What host would you suggest? I've never uploaded audio to the internet that way.

[Halfway Competent]

It's been awhile since I've been here though I've still been very busy mixing. I've found that in larger songs the LCR send has proven to be the most effective. I've ditched the EQ'ing on everything! Also I bought a pair of cheaper monitors (Rokit 6) and go back and forth between them and my headphones. Muddyness isn't much of an issue anymore, just bad vocal takes haha. I'll post some tracks regardless, for anyone who may have some general advice.

What host would you suggest? I've never uploaded audio to the internet that way.

You could try Windows Live SkyDrive...
http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?wa=wsignin1.0

[albert]

yousendit.com

mediafire.com

and soundcloud.com

Some ways I've used before to show people music.

Is there an easy way to upload MP3's to this forum that I've missed?

[Zachg]

Is there an easy way to upload MP3's to this forum that I've missed?

You can attach MP3's to a post, but the file has to be pretty small I think (1.91 MB). That's enough for a snippet, but to show off a full song, it's much easier to use dropbox or something like that.

Zach

[albert]

You can attach MP3's to a post, but the file has to be pretty small I think (1.91 MB). That's enough for a snippet, but to show off a full song, it's much easier to use dropbox or something like that.

Zach

Cool, thanks for the info.

[joshfeldman]

I'm going with Soundcloud, the songs are big (15 megs).

These are the first two tracks, unmastered. Try and listen to them one quickly after the first: The first song is a string quartet in E that changes keys to G at the crescendo around 1:05 and the second song is in G, so they should flow nicely together.

Please be picky, any suggestions, ideas or things you don't like that I find out about will make me better, I have a thick enough skin. :)

http://soundcloud.com/joshfeldman/intro-unmastered

http://soundcloud.com/joshfeldman/telephone-poles-unmastered

[Halfway Competent]

I'm going with Soundcloud, the songs are big (15 megs).

These are the first two tracks, unmastered. Try and listen to them one quickly after the first: The first song is a string quartet in E that changes keys to G at the crescendo around 1:05 and the second song is in G, so they should flow nicely together.

Please be picky, any suggestions, ideas or things you don't like that I find out about will make me better, I have a thick enough skin. :)

http://soundcloud.com/joshfeldman/intro-unmastered

http://soundcloud.com/joshfeldman/telephone-poles-unmastered

Actually, dude... This is good!

I do have a couple of observations.
1 -- something about the (I assume) glockenspiel is bothering me... Sounds like maybe it was miked closely? Maybe backing the mic away a bit would help that.

2 -- The strings sound a little thin and strained; your room sounds almost completely dead, so try adding just a bit of reverb to it. I like to be really subtle with reverb; add just enough that it gives a sense of "space" to the sound, but not so much that you hear it as reverb. If the muted sound is what you're going for, this won't mess that up; will just make it sound a little fuller, is all.

Beyond that, I like the tunes, too.

[albert]

I'm going with Soundcloud, the songs are big (15 megs).

These are the first two tracks, unmastered. Try and listen to them one quickly after the first: The first song is a string quartet in E that changes keys to G at the crescendo around 1:05 and the second song is in G, so they should flow nicely together.

Please be picky, any suggestions, ideas or things you don't like that I find out about will make me better, I have a thick enough skin. :)

http://soundcloud.com/joshfeldman/intro-unmastered

http://soundcloud.com/joshfeldman/telephone-poles-unmastered

Josh,

Sounds great! Don't change anything if you feel it might make your mix fall apart. With that said:

Perhaps the strings are just a dash too close and in one's face for my taste. Also, consider putting the two songs in the same session so that you can get their consistency and timing for the change together.

But really, super cool, if you change nothing it will be a success. All a matter of taste at this point.

Oh and also, just as Halfway pointed out, the Glockenspiel stuck out to me a bit too much as well. I would figure out a way to tuck it in a little bit, using possibly reverb, or EQ & level.

You really did a fine job,

[joshfeldman]

Thank you both, I'm sure the musicians will be flattered to hear your support.

The three of us are in agreement with the bells track. I did it stereo and measured it out. Solo'd I think they sound pretty cool because they stereo image L-R is quite accurate (I would like to think) and it's fun to hear the sound bounce around left and right relative to the pitch. I agree in that they feel out of place and just well, not very good. I'll try and work that out and get back to you guys on the progress.

Yes, my room sucks. In a few months I'll have my own space and will have two LW Sepemeyer rooms and a larger room to work with. I think that my mixes will really be able to take off from that point. For right now, though the RTAS reverb with logic sounds really really bad, I don't think I'll be able to use it to my advantage, and that's all I have.

[albert]

Hey, whatever tools you have right now do not seem to matter much, because apparently you're MOVING THE MICS. :P

Keep doing what you're doing, and if you really want a nice fancy algorithmic reverb that is versatile and a "solution", check out the Sonnox Reverb.

(iLok demo exsists, and it's AU, RTAS, VST, all that jazz. . .)

[Mixwell]

I'm going with Soundcloud, the songs are big (15 megs).

These are the first two tracks, unmastered. Try and listen to them one quickly after the first: The first song is a string quartet in E that changes keys to G at the crescendo around 1:05 and the second song is in G, so they should flow nicely together.

Please be picky, any suggestions, ideas or things you don't like that I find out about will make me better, I have a thick enough skin. :)

http://soundcloud.com/joshfeldman/intro-unmastered

http://soundcloud.com/joshfeldman/telephone-poles-unmastered

Great work Josh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I really like what I heard, but still can identify with the comments above.

Though - I don't mind the closeness and deadness of the room. Certainly - its pretty polite and dry [up front in yo face] which may or may not suit the aesthetic. Maybe a "softer" more fluid sound with "more dynamics" can make things less "dead" and more "alive". I bet you'd cry tears of joy from this audio playback if it was in a bigger room with some amazing REAL decay and reflections happening from the performance. You need some "live" aspects happening and while a reverb helps with that - it never replaces a room. Even the good ones don't replace a room.

[joshfeldman]

Hey thanks Albert, I'll give that one try!

Thanks as well Adam, and again to everyone else. It's always nice to have support from those you hold in high regard and respect. I agree that the strings are a little too big sounding, they were close mic'd - stereo about 3 ft apart.

I'll have a lot more to take to my next project, that's for sure.

[joshfeldman]

Sonnox is awesome. Wow. I added a bit of space around the strings and a bit more to the bells and LCR'd them to the left. I think this is a considerable enough improvement to repost.

http://soundcloud.com/joshfeldman/telephone-poles-improved-unmastered

[joshfeldman]

Sonnox is awesome. Wow. I added a bit of space around the strings and a bit more to the bells and LCR'd them to the left. I think this is a considerable enough improvement to repost.

http://soundcloud.com/joshfeldman/telephone-poles-improved-unmastered

[Weiss-Sound]

I think your difficult task will be getting the space to open up and putting a little glow into these tracks. They are dark and sunken in - it's not something that simple treble boost will fix.

That 200hz thing in the acoustic guitar is most likely a result from aiming the mic directly at the sound hole, and possibly too close.

The only advice I can really give is to grab that eq and search around for "sweet spots". For lack of better description, you can add a little bit of gain to these sweet spots and makes the whole instrument feel like it comes forward. Similarly, you may find some "mud zones". These are narrow areas where gaining seems to add something, but it doesn't really sound like it's part of the instrument - it's just some amorphous sound. Cut those to the point where it makes the rest of the instrument seem more focused, but don't cut too much or the instrument will become thinned out. That being said, sometimes resonances build up - those are usually easy to hear like the muck at 200 you were describing - those can often benefit from a pretty heavy ginsu ninja slice (samurai attenuation).

edit: if you are having trouble with getting the eq right, and you feel like you are effecting the correct frequencies then remember to adjust the Q control properly.

[Halfway Competent]

Sonnox is awesome. Wow. I added a bit of space around the strings and a bit more to the bells and LCR'd them to the left. I think this is a considerable enough improvement to repost.

http://soundcloud.com/joshfeldman/telephone-poles-improved-unmastered

Good, subtle change that did a great job of opening it up!

Good work!