Royer 121 or a R84 for guitar cab recording [Archive]

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dillon

25 Jun 2010, 20:09

pauly

26 Jun 2010, 00:13

the 4038, and the 121 kick ass on rock. the r84 i prefer on drums. thats just me.

i would say you need to try them.

pauly

26 Jun 2010, 00:17

the 4038 is considered by many to be THE classic rock ribbon

Sandyrb

26 Jun 2010, 01:36

Looking to get another mic for guitar cab recording.
classic rock type [...] looking into a AEA R84 and Royer 121.

The 121 gets my vote; I've had some amazing results out of them. But you have to angle it right. ;)

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

dillon

27 Jun 2010, 11:22

I also thought of a Josephson E22 mic for guitar cabs.
any input Adam?

Zachg

27 Jun 2010, 12:24

I also thought of a Josephson E22 mic for guitar cabs.
any input Adam?

the e22 can kick ass on guitars, especially distorted ones!
At Pulsworks, Sandy and I did a guitar mic shootout, and the winners were both Josephsons, the e22 and C720.

The word I remmber using to describe it was "anger," the recordings came out sounding way more aggressive than all the others...

Sandyrb

27 Jun 2010, 12:40

I also thought of a Josephson E22 mic for guitar cabs.

I can wholeheartedly agree with Zach here, the Josephson e22 is a stunning mic. I can understand why Steve Albini - who was involved in its development - likes it so much. It's incredibly versatile and I've only found it to be a "definitely wrong" choice once. I wish I had ten of them.

Cheers,

Mixwell

27 Jun 2010, 12:50

Looking to get another mic for guitar cab recording.
classic rock type
what is the best you recommend?
Have been using a Bock 195 which I love.
looking into a AEA R84 and Royer 121.
coles 4038?
Tried a R92 was not crazy about it.

The R92 is more specialized, and certainly not going to be everyone's "cup-o-tee". But, what the hell is?? Nuthin. Though - I have grown fond of the R92 for Electric Keys. Put it on a Rhodes cab, or a Wurlitzer cab.

BOYOOYING. Certainly there are others I like as well......

"It all depends on what you have and where you want to use it"

All of these are different shades of useful for lots-o-stuff, and I can tell you, that without identifying with you and your applications more, recommending anything is like swilling warm beer in 110 degree heat. It goes down a little hard. "Classic Rock Type" is not enough for me to suggest one thing over an another here, but sure as sun shining in daylight, I am capable of attaining a "rock type" sound out of any of those aforementioned microphones with any player and any instrument/cab. How "good" or end user definable is up the player, and the TONE of the amp/cab but what it should SOUND like in the song/part etc, is up to you. The tones/responses, and characters of these microphones are very different and certainly your aesthetic will bread a popular choice.

The R84 is a personal favorite mid distance ribbon for electrics where body, and low mid punch is required. Same can be said for the 121, but its vastly different than the R84, in the way of it has less extreme proximity effect and likes when you jam it up against the speaker at high volumes. The 121 has a very interesting mid and top end cut to it, and dare I say has a brighter sound to it. I would gender the R84 as more "classic" RCA type dryness, whereas the 121 is more "hip" and polite and more "wet" and shiny "finish". Its absolutely a bad mama jama on LOUD Electric stuff. Its very punchy in the low mid, and crisp up top.

I also thought of a Josephson E22 mic for guitar cabs.
any input Adam?

The e22s does awesome on WAY more stuff than just that! Try one and you'll find out why you haven't yet re-coined the phrase "man's best freind" to a microphone. This is the only microphone that truly can be balls out everywhere you put it. Toms, Kick, Snare, OH, Stings, Electrics [GTR/Bass] Acoustic, Percussion, Room, Stereo A/B Orchestral, Horns, Woodwinds.....

The List Continues. The E22s has a SUPER HUGE amount of input headroom and a lower output, so it won't beat up the preamp on loud sharp transients. Its transformer output gives the microphone a certain kind of punch that is unholy on this type of work. The only problem is that once you get one, you'll need another, and another after that. No escaping.

the e22 can kick ass on guitars, especially distorted ones!
At Pulsworks, Sandy and I did a guitar mic shootout, and the winners were both Josephsons, the e22 and C720.

The word I remmber using to describe it was "anger," the recordings came out sounding way more aggressive than all the others...

dillon

29 Jun 2010, 17:01

Mixwell

01 Jul 2010, 14:05

well I use Matchless amps and I have a Komet concorde EL 34.
The sound I like to get is like a sheryl crow, aerosmith sound.
I also like the sound of Joan osborne "one of us" guitar sound.
That is what I am looking to get.
I play a Tom anderson Cobra.
I also wondered how the new Shure 353 ribbon would sound or
is it overkill?

I always love 121 for this type of "pop-ish" but mellow texture.

They are very open and clear sounding with a crisp attack to the sound that favors this tone. The KSM353 has a vastly different sound, [WAY more SPL intake across the entire spectrum] and if you were recording stuff that was way more aggressive it would also be a good call, but personally, the tone of the Royer is more fitting for your setup IMO. As always, trying a bunch and sending back the loser[s] is the best course of action. Another GREAT option [if none of these satisfy the tone thirst] is the 122V, which I find to be a monster of epic proportion in all regards.

dillon

01 Jul 2010, 21:19

How does the sound of the 122V differ from the 121?
Is it different or is the 122V better?

pauly

02 Jul 2010, 10:37

the 122v is a tube ribbon, i cant tell you how it compares to the 121 because the demo i got was screwed up.

Mixwell

02 Jul 2010, 14:06

How does the sound of the 122V differ from the 121?
Is it different or is the 122V better?

I'll try and post examples for you

btheadbtheadbtheadbtheadbthead

dillon

03 Jul 2010, 13:27

adam have you heard of cloud microphones?
They are basically a RCA BK-11.
WOuld that be a good choice?

Sandyrb

03 Jul 2010, 17:06

WOuld that be a good choice?

Problem is you're not really going to know which mic you prefer until you've heard them for yourself. Everyone here has their own perfectly valid opinion, some in agreement and some not. There may be so many differing preferences that there aren't even enough to reflect a majority view! :) Plus, as has already been said, choice of microphone depends a lot on stylistic considerations. So there's mileage in finding the most versatile.

Unless you're in a hurry to purchase may I suggest taking as much time as possible to evaluate different choices. In particular, try them with your own choices of preamps and outboard to see how they react with them. Ultimately, before you part company with money, you'll want to be satisfied that you're getting the best possible choice for your intended application.

Hope this helps. :)

Cheers,

Mixwell

03 Jul 2010, 17:38

Just last night; I cut KEEPER electric GTR tracks with BOTH a Josephson e22s and a Royer 122V about 1 foot off the speaker. Didn't have a 121, but those worked instead.

I'll post the song sometime soon. it was a Gibson Firebird into an FMR A.R.C compressor pedal [which adds clarity] into an Oahu Head w/ a Marshall 4X12 cab and each microphone on a speaker. Both Microphones went into Great River Microphone Preamplifiers and straight into RADAR.

Sandyrb

03 Jul 2010, 21:47

BOTH a Josephson e22s and a Royer 122V about 1 foot off the speaker.

Haven't tried that combination meself but I can imagine it being an excellent pairing. They're both superb mics.

I'm trying to get the boss to spring for some 421s at the moment... but maybe I should ask for a couple of Royers instead! :)

Cheers,

Zachg

03 Jul 2010, 23:42

I'm trying to get the boss to spring for some 421s at the moment... but maybe I should ask for a couple of Royers instead! :)

Cheers,

Ask for Both!!! :D

Mixwell

07 Jul 2010, 14:09

Haven't tried that combination meself but I can imagine it being an excellent pairing. They're both superb mics.

I'm trying to get the boss to spring for some 421s at the moment... but maybe I should ask for a couple of Royers instead! :)

Cheers,

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs023.ash2/34505_131115453594983_127073923999136_168736_26727 0_n.jpg

dillon

07 Jul 2010, 16:40

thats pretty cool looking.
I ordered a R121 royer.

Thanks

CaptainHook

24 Nov 2010, 06:39

Sorry for the thread necro..

I actually have enjoyed lately using both my R84 and 121 side by side on gat cabs.
(i also combine with an 87).

Adam ~ i really want to try an e22. I'm still on the search for a snare mic i LOVE.
I still haven't had the chance to try a KM84 either, but from what i've read it seems
i would like the e22 more. How does it fair as a vocal mic (the e22) ?
If i loved an e22 on snare, and used it with my 121 on gats i'd be happy. If it worked
on a few vocalists too i would sorting out finances to get one.

But so far i've tried some of the usuals..
57's (eh)
414s
C451s
C460s
87s
67s
121's
421s

And i've also tried various combinations of the above also and nothing really DOES it for me.
All of them have been usable in their own way, but i haven't found my GOTO snare mic yet.

Mixwell

24 Nov 2010, 12:43

I freaking LOVE the e22s HOOK!

Funny thing about the Vocals though. You'll know when this microphone is absolutely perfect for the vocal application, when it hits you like a ten thousand ton of bricks [or your console] and proceeds to capture the perfect mid range picture and throat/emotion of a vocalist without flinching or batting a lash. It would be the absolute mind blower of the Apocalypse.

We had a client send us a mix file of acoustic, songwriter stuff with plenty of great musicians and instruments all over the record - and through the array of awesome sounds and tone and pictures of music - here comes this little ethnic style snake charming voice that rides over the music in the most beautifully sculpted form and grabs you like nothing you've ever heard before. It was the winning move in Tetris. You know - when the final block fits into place? I couldn't believe that the E22s was the microphone used - but as I listened further and honed into the sound - I heard the familiar experience. This source was Dry - into a GML preamp. It was also recorded by an engineer, so that helps to.

The E22s is a BBBBIIIIGGGG sounding SDC. It has balls and bottom and a really detailed mid range and focused and natural high end. It can handle amazing SPL - and the because of the output transformer - the sound starts to round off at the top edges in a compellingly musical way. Its only round, never harsh. Its got a faster punch to it on almost all sources and really captures the depth of bottom in an amazing way. They are easily first call microphone for a lot of things - and they seem to make your job way easier by mix time. I use them [whenever I can] on;

toms/kick/snare/overheads/room/electric/bass/strings/acoustics/distance X/Y, A/B, ORTF, piano!!!/on and on and on and on [as described above]......

Vocals though - its one of those magic moments where the stars align and you know what gear you need to use to what result.

Adam ~ i really want to try an e22. I'm still on the search for a snare mic i LOVE.
I still haven't had the chance to try a KM84 either, but from what i've read it seems
i would like the e22 more. How does it fair as a vocal mic (the e22) ?
If i loved an e22 on snare, and used it with my 121 on gats i'd be happy. If it worked
on a few vocalists too i would sorting out finances to get one.

CaptainHook

24 Nov 2010, 18:46

Thanks for your thoughts and the lengthy post Adam!

I don't think we have a local dealer here (have to look into it) so i may end up ordering
one from you guys as a xmas present to myself. Hehe. I would rather try one out first
but that relies on a local dealer that may not exist.

CaptainHook

30 Nov 2010, 01:05

Just an FYI, a dealer here in NZ was able to source me one from Australia for a fair price.
(basically the same as Mercenary..)

Should arrive at the end of the week! Hurrah!

pauly

01 Dec 2010, 10:58

Should arrive at the end of the week! Hurrah!

hook that mic is so dope, i got a good feeling you got your goto snare mic, your going to want more. one thing i love about that mic is its not as hot as other condensers, that you can put them on loud rockin stuff, drums, guitar cabs, bass cabs and you don't need the pads. it more or less has the output of a dynamic mic, just so you know.

CaptainHook

03 Dec 2010, 18:07

Thanks!

It arrived yesterday and we did some blind testing on snare and guitar..
It won both! On snare, it seemed like a much better version of a 57. And it was like it
had a transient designer built in giving it more smack/attack than the 57/414/87 we put it
against. It was better to me, but the difference wasn't as great as the difference
when we put it on guitar! It was MILES above the 87/121 in terms of clarity, fullness,
punch, while not having the same "nasties" as the other two.

In combo with the 121 it was GREATNESS. I usually use an 87 with my 121 but
this beat that combo HANDS DOWN.

Thanks for the recommendations. Very happy so far. :)

Mixwell

04 Dec 2010, 13:00

Congrats on the upgrade Hook.

Welcome to the e22s fan club.

CaptainHook

30 Dec 2010, 00:25

I posted this over at the womb but thought i should copy here for an update on my
experiences with the e22s..

My initial "tests" were on the neve. Then i tried with my API's.
I love it on both. About two weeks ago i tracked a song where i
recorded everything i could with it. Snare (wish i could have done
the whole kit!), bass, all guitars (including ac and dist), percussion
overdubs and vocals!

The monitor mix (which for me is fader/pan balances only) was
stunning. The most "3D" and 'finished' sounding i had ever done.
Perhaps if anything, it might be hyped too much cause it worries
me i would like something that much straight away. I've always
loved using just 87's (maybe a 67 or 47 somewhere in there)
on everything (including toms.. or 414s).. but this just fits my
aesthetic much more.

p.s Thanks again Adam!

dillon

07 Jan 2011, 02:06

Adam
Do you have a demo of the e22s
On guitar cabinet?

Mixwell

07 Jan 2011, 12:41

I can try and dig something up for you later today if I get the time.

dillon

11 Jan 2011, 21:15

Hi Adam

I got the Royer 121 which I like alot on guitar cabs.
I would just like another flavor.
So wondering if my next purchase should be a AEA R84, E22S, or maybe the AEA 44 considering.
If you have any demo's I would like to here it.

Mixwell

11 Jan 2011, 22:35

Yo Dillon, man....these days keep getting away from me.....

I'll dig up the e22s sample some time soon, but I got one for you that blew my skirt up and kept it up.

I am absolutely PUMPED on the AEA R44CE. Of course, I also LOVE the R84, the A840 iterations, but this microphone is; as my good friend Sean Eldon would put it...."bonerific"...

It sounds old [in a good way], thick, warm with awesome body in the mid that is ridiculously cool. I dunno, this mike is super sexy sounding and super appealing to my preference.

Here is Donnie B, our former shipping manager [who's had some brandy and beer] singing the blues into the 44CE about 10-12 inches away through my VT2 with all the gain supplied, which is 53 DB. I patched it into a Symphony I/O going into Pro Tools @ 24/44.1, [-16 DBFS = +4, 0VU] so you'll want to "right click and save as" this file.

AEA R44CE - VT2 - Apogee Symphony I/O - Pro Tools - Export (http://www.movethemics.com/uploads/adam/AEA44CE-VT2-SYMIO-PTHD.wav)

dillon

12 Jan 2011, 18:46

That demo sounds good but for electric guitar cab recording to compliment or add to a 121 would you recommend the R44CE over the E22S?

Mixwell

12 Jan 2011, 18:53

Peaches and Megaphones! Totally different worlds altogether! What are you looking for currently? What texture/response is appealing for you on your instrument? An all purpose SDC to bring out the details? Or the sound of the 50's and 60's to throw some more kindle in the furnace? Seems you've got an awesome ribbon already, but damn the 44CE is very different from a 121. The e22s is kind of a desert island SDC for me that's worth its weight in gold most days. You can't make a bad choice between these two, but it surely depends on what you need and what you want out of the tracks!

dillon

13 Jan 2011, 01:18

The demo's of the r44ce on electric guitars
On the aea website sound fantastic.
Some of the best I have heard.
I guess i have to get a demo.

dillon

19 Jan 2011, 21:57

Mixwell

19 Jan 2011, 22:20

I went to NAMM and talked with AEA mics.
He said you need to use a ribbon mic with a high impedence level.
Opens up the mic. That is why they make the TRP and RPQ mic pre.
There was a need for it on the market. That is probably why I never
cared for the R92.
So it would be pointless to get a R44 unless I also got a TRP with it?
It was a large size microphone.

You don't NEED a high impedance preamplifier with ANY ribbon mike, including the 44, as in to say; you don't NEED an AIR RATCHET to loosen the lugs on a tire, and you can use a jack and tire iron with some elbow grease and get the job done. However; AEA is correct, impedance is very important with ribbon mikes, but in my experience any modern preamplifier will work well with these microphones for "normal volume recordings". If you are doing quieter sources with low output microphones, than the TRP and RPQ, as well as other great offerings to the market, they maybe are a better call for your applications. The application should breed the tool! Personally, putting a 44 on any electric guitar cab means I won't be worrying much about the preamp unless I want to play with the tone/reaction and bring in a new texture. I think that source will be loud enough to defeat the noise and I can use pretty much anything in the rack. The AEA preamps are about hearing into the ribbon and its depth without the noise and distortion and they are surely great options to try out with their, and other low output microphones.

bleen

19 Jan 2011, 22:35

Mixwell

19 Jan 2011, 22:36

The Shiny Box preamps (both 500-series and 4ch rack) have impedence switches as Jon designed them to pair well with his low-imp ribbon mics as well as any other mic. They are clean as hell and sound great.

I like the "SI" very much, and think a four channel rack unit with internal PSU is a great call. We need to get this one on the site.

Pulsar Audio Lab

21 Jan 2011, 12:24

One mic I didn't see mentioned here is the Cascade Fat Head II. I was wondering if anyones used that on guitars?