What's the future for large console rooms [Archive]

Danny de Matos

17 Jun 2010, 19:48

We are/have been witnessing a seismic shift in how and where music is recorded.

With ever-dwindling sales, product loss leaders given away free by the big four, piracy, smaller and smaller budgets for development, exponential growth in digital technology and the blurring of pro/semi pro/amateur software/gear and plenty of other reasons for diminishing investment in recording - what is the future for large console/room studios?

We have all seen so many big name studios disappear at a rate of knots over the last few years and it seems set to continue.

I believe that the way forward will see the professional small format studio producer/engineer rule the roost. They have less/tiny overheads in rented rooms/rooms within their homes/garages/gardens and with the required experience and the current crop of technology, can and will make large format studios virtually redundant.

Independent producers are more and more providing their recording services for free and charging for their production time. More and more projects are being presented to A&R as a fait accompli.

The independent writer/producer with their own studio is king. He/she will survive and largeformat with become a beautiful and rare dinosaur curio. (Mammoths in ice perhaps)

All in all.. it's natural selection, yeah, it's darwinism.... it's the future.

Here's to the future

Mixwell

18 Jun 2010, 20:55

We are/have been witnessing a seismic shift in how and where music is recorded.

Well, like everything else in this world. We all must come full circle to evolve.

I don't necessarily think we are entirely lost, or we ventured far off the coarse of timeless archival, [no matter where it is and happens] and I think you will find people truly devoted to Audio and its Science, Craft and Art form no matter what tools and places they choose to employ to accomplish the goals they have set out for. Being only able to speak for myself, I can say that I aspire to learn the pedigree of the old school, and adapt what I have learned, to my sense of what is right and wrong - "now" and in the moment. I specify the tool set accordingly, as they are both readily available and at my disposal. I refuse to let the tool set define me, as I feel it is the other way around.

With ever-dwindling sales, product loss leaders given away free by the big four, piracy, smaller and smaller budgets for development, exponential growth in digital technology and the blurring of pro/semi pro/amateur software/gear and plenty of other reasons for diminishing investment in recording - what is the future for large console/room studios?

Music Sales? Home Studio Gear, Audio Equipment Sales? Large Format Consoles? Anyway, Digital Technology reaches the "disposable" highland, WAY before almost all Analog Hardware. Surely the Best Digital ADA hardware and tactile technology is bananas, and there is lots of it out there, but NOTHING will ever replace using an analog console, especially for music production. I think it is too easy to generalize this, in the manor at which, we proceed to think of recording studios, spaces, and the equipment it is outfitted with, are of higher ranking in importance than the people specifying and operating the tangential order of things.

We have all seen so many big name studios disappear at a rate of knots over the last few years and it seems set to continue.

I can only blame bad business choices and decisions on these select people. I know of MANY Studios that have GROWN as Business's becasue they have put high quality analog consoles in their rooms, thus the Final Product is heads and tails better, so they continue to work and create revenue for themselves. Its like that with anything though. You need lots more stuff than just a mixer in a studio. In the end; Operating a Studio With a Large Format Console is a Business like any other, [opening any studio with anything really] and you are catering to your niche market becasue of your aforementioned prowess and most importantly the people behind the technology of your environment. I've always found that putting people in higher regard, seems to pay off for me.

I believe that the way forward will see the professional small format studio producer/engineer rule the roost. They have less/tiny overheads in rented rooms/rooms within their homes/garages/gardens and with the required experience and the current crop of technology, can and will make large format studios virtually redundant.

Possibly so, but I think this has already been going on for the last 20-30 years now, with the home studio aversion. The Dramatics are definitely in full effect with our industry, becasue every Tom, Dick and Jane, wants to join the party and slice the cake. The fact and truth is, studios with this equipment are designed this way for a reason.

Danny de Matos

19 Jun 2010, 09:55

Quote Mixwell - "I can only blame bad business choices and decisions on these select people. I know of MANY Studios that have GROWN as Business's becasue they have put high quality analog consoles in their rooms,"

Sure but I beg to differ in general terms and further suggest that those that have seen growth may have mostly absorbed from others who have not managed to survive. They have not generally, in my opinion grown the sector because of investment in largeformat. The largeformat sector is undeniably in decline, no matter how King Canute the reaction is to it. It is happening right now.

My main thrust with all of this is that I truly believe that those that can adapt are the ones that will survive long term. Here in London UK - Townhouse, Olympic, Matrix, etc etc etc all premier facilities gone. Feel free to research. Many more to follow. Why? They failed to evolve. Smaller, fitter, smarter, quicker is the key to survival. Just my opinion, of course, but worthy of discussion rather than simple denial or a "burying head in the sand" "it's all gonna be fine" approach. We need to exchange ideas, discuss and help each other if we are to move forward and still be doing this privileged kind of work in little more than a few more years time.

There will always be "exceptions that prove the rule". However, in the real world out here, the facts are undeniable. High end recording budgets are declining at an unprecedented rate of knots. Additionally, please feel free to look for yourself and perhaps contact practically any label with a recording budget regarding this issue, and those that commission productions will tell you that their expenditure on creating masters has had to drop massively even from just a few years ago, almost exclusively due to a fall in revenue from sales. To take any other course would make the business even more unsustainable. However, further to this enhanced competition, technology has driven down budgets even further and this combination is primarily the driving force behind is what is making the vast majority of largeformat unsustainable in the long term.

You know how to make a small fortune from investing in a largeformat recording studio?
Start with a big fortune ;)

My personal everyday experience as a producer/composer tells me that if I had continued to insist on working in largeformat and not adapted I'd probably still be doing what I do, but it would more than likely be just a hobby and most of my time would not be spent making records or music for broadcast but actually instead, I'd be asking people "do you want fries with that?".... (I'd probably have to to survive, right?)

I don't want this discussion to be all doom and gloom. There are challenges ahead sure, but we must face them and overcome them. We can do this much more effectively if we are aware of the environment around is and react accordingly. Discussion about it will nurture advice and solutions to the problems we face.

Rather the same way that there are still and will always be craftsmen handturning wood to make beautiful and worthy oak chairs, so some anachronistic big studio will always be there, I would hope. Given the necessary budget I will on occasion have the need to use them no doubt (an orchestra recording next week being a case in point) but the bottom line is that afterward, I'll also need to get back to my own smallformat facility asap to make the project viable so that I can then move on to the next project and do some more.

Stay lucky, but work hard and you'll get luckier.

Cheers,

Danny de Matos

Mixwell

19 Jun 2010, 12:36

Quote Mixwell - "I can only blame bad business choices and decisions on these select people. I know of MANY Studios that have GROWN as Business's becasue they have put high quality analog consoles in their rooms,"

Sure but I beg to differ in general terms and further suggest that those that have seen growth may have mostly absorbed from others who have not managed to survive. They have not generally, in my opinion grown the sector because of investment in largeformat. The largeformat sector is undeniably in decline, no matter how King Canute the reaction is to it. It is happening right now.

Well, Danny, I certainly can agree with your premise and points, and its true, all the behemoths of the golden age are becoming no more, with exceptions to the rule of course. From this above statement, I must coin your "large format" tag as a term I will use for "doing it better", since I personally feel, that we are coming back around to NEEDING TO DO IT BETTER, in every sense of the word, instead of doing it smaller/quicker/easier and more compact. Surely, once again, your economical points are duly noted, and I am sure for a person such as yourself, working in this manor sustains the needed revenue for your business and allows you to properly service your clientele in more ways than one very specific one. That's what this is about!! Clearly, this model is different for everyone, and we are all just trying to get in where we fit in and work in the proper scope of our investments. It is the people who are TOO FAT FOR THE DOOR, that will be washed away by the hourglass. By the same token, in my experience, many artists that I know, are finding out that you simply cannot make recordings that are "large format" without one. While the results are good with the technology of the age, these places we are speaking of exist [and many "existed"] for a reason and a purpose. Perhaps that reason no longer exists in large numbers, but it certainly exists and has numbers behind it.

My main thrust with all of this is that I truly believe that those that can adapt are the ones that will survive long term. Here in London UK - Townhouse, Olympic, Matrix, etc etc etc all premier facilities gone. Feel free to research. Many more to follow. Why? They failed to evolve. Smaller, fitter, smarter, quicker is the key to survival. Just my opinion, of course, but worthy of discussion rather than simple denial or a "burying head in the sand" "it's all gonna be fine" approach. We need to exchange ideas, discuss and help each other if we are to move forward and still be doing this privileged kind of work in little more than a few more years time.

To kick up a positive note, what about the rooms that are still kicking? Danny, you can't tell me that you wouldn't specify Ocean Way, or East West, Or Real World, if your client had the scope and the vision to do so. Maybe its better LOTS of places like that DON'T EXIST, to make way for the REALLY GOOD ONES!!! I can think of more rooms with endangered boat anchors, than I can think of non-existent ones, but I suppose its becasue they are more interesting and noteworthy, becasue of the people whom select them. Surely they are outnumbered!!!!!

You know how to make a small fortune from investing in a largeformat recording studio?
Start with a big fortune ;)

What's the best way to become a Millionaire? Start with Four Million and start a recording studio.

Stay lucky, but work hard and you'll get luckier.

I like this quote Danny.

pauly

21 Jun 2010, 00:33

I believe that the way forward will see the professional small format studio producer/engineer rule the roost. They have less/tiny overheads in rented rooms/rooms within their homes/garages/gardens and with the required experience and the current crop of technology, can and will make large format studios virtually redundant.

i think your somewhat correct, most of us will have a small format studio but i also think there is a market for the super high end. people who have the money who demand the absolute best and will pay.

i would also say that allot of smaller studios are buying smaller desks 1608, rupert neve, ssl, wunder and i'll bet with good fortune and hard work will want and purchase larger desks.

Danny de Matos

24 Jun 2010, 17:12

Yeah, maybe you're right Pauly, but the fact that Neve, SSL etc are re-aligning their business to offer small format is because this is their growth area. They know it's coming. I guess I'm a bit hasty in sounding the death bell of large format, 'cos it will always be there - somewhere... I just think that it will be a real rarity. The Breitling of recording and there are already enough of them across the globe that are threatening closure and I don't see new ones opening in any significant number.

I guess this is all part of a bigger worrying and sad issue. Ultimately what saddens me the most, I guess, is that the music (or audio in general) in new being "listened to" in a compressed format usually in solitary isolation through shitty headphones with a limited frequency range or eg on small mp3 player computer type speakers in a kitchen... or a car with background noise.

I think the industry would do well to get together and promote listening to music "properly"... CD's or at a push Super Cd's through a real hifi. Emphasise the quality issue and not the convenience.

Maybe it's too late 'cos the genie is out of the bottle?... Nah, never say it's too late.

ALL sectors of Audio production AND reproduction should cooperate We need to all get together and get this quality thing over to Joe Public.. otherwise it could be curtains for the industry and we know it with even further contraction - and that really would be the saddest day of all for all of us.

People of the world , join hands...let's make a Music Train, a Music Train... (with all due respect to the original version and writers)

Here's hoping

seaneldon

28 Jun 2010, 23:09

Independent producers are more and more providing their recording services for free and charging for their production time. More and more projects are being presented to A&R as a fait accompli.

I call bullshit.

People who don't charge for their time are people who aren't working in the first place. End of story. If they were actually working...they'd get money for their work. Anyone who is ACTUALLY in this business with half a brain knows that music isn't selling the way it used to, and points on the back-end are fucking meaningless without UP-FRONT FUCKING PAY FOR YOUR WORK.

Please point me to one working, professional audio engineer who does not charge for their time. You won't find one. If you do for some reason, please send them my contacts so we can meet in person and I can kick the shit out of him/her.

I've hit a rough patch in the last few months. I got laid off from a kush gig I thought I'd retire with, and had to fend for myself. I went and spent money I didn't have in the first place to go to shows and meet musicians, hang out at guitar shops to talk with people who sound like they have a clue, get back in touch with old clients and friends, all this and that...

I made enough money to barely make rent for 3 months. If I did not charge for my services, I'd be homeless. If I don't land a good record or pick up a 9-5 in the next 2 weeks I WILL be homeless.

I mean this in all seriousness -- If there IS someone who is taking away perfectly good work from people like me who intend to EARN A LIVING by giving away recording time to make shitty-sounding records...PLEASE give me their contact info. Preferably their home address.

Mixwell

28 Jun 2010, 23:27

Damn - Sean Eldon is back in the building. We missed you home slice....

With this post I almost wanna give you my home address,

Guinness-Sometime-Soon? Promise it's on me.

STUN MODE's going down with 4 drummers.

DeciBill

29 Jun 2010, 16:25

Greetings all,

I find it fascinating that this is even a debated topic. Is it not obvious that large format consoles will soon be obsolete? Why are we trying to deny this natural technological evolution?

First, it seems these debates get off topic very quickly. It should be noted that a console is not the same thing as a great studio, a great engineer, a great instrument or a great piece of gear. You can remove a console from the picture and still have the rest. Consoles do not make awesome records, people make awesome records. Rather, people make awesome records in spite of large, noisy, failing consoles.

I have worked on a handful of boards for the last ten years. SSL's, Tridents, Harrisons... all the usual suspects. After all my experiences I can say very truthfully there is nothing I would rather mix on than a Mac Pro with a nice mouse! Why should I prefer something else? I never have to leave my sweet spot, my channels never fail, I'm not spending $400/month simply to supply a console with electricity, I have as many or as few channels as I want, everything is recallable within 30 seconds... shall I continue?

Let's think about this... a young engineer in the 60's or 70's hasn't known anything other than a large console, and the larger -- the better! It's all that was available. If you were to give him the option of a very large, very expensive, not-very-recallable, console OR Pro Tools as we know it today... which do you think he'd choose? If a mouse existed before a fader, the fader never would have been invented.

Now how is it that a mouse could be more intuitive to me than a fader? Two words... Number Munchers. People my age grew up on Number Munchers and Oregon Trail. I have been using a mouse for nearly 20 years... it's like an extension of my body. I can understand it isn't as intuitive to people who have been mixing on SSL's for the last 20 years, and that okay -- to each, their own. However, I do find it a bit obnoxious when people tell me I am doing something wrong by using a mouse. Between my quick keys, mighty mouse, and my very own plugin presets, I can work more efficiently than most seasoned SSL users.

I'd like to see us embrace the future a bit more. It would be unfortunate to see more good engineers become obsolete while they resist the inevitable.

-Bill

Halfway Competent

29 Jun 2010, 17:12

Bill, I agree with you in part.

There is no reason why a console that is large-format must automatically sound good, while a smaller console automatically does not sound as good. Ultimately it's about the circuitry in the console and, yes, the engineer operating it.

That said, I, too, do all of my mixing in-the-box. Why? Simple: Budget. I can't afford a large, good-sounding console. Were I to have the means, though, I probably would go for a proper console... I wouldn't likely get something like an 88R; just too expensive. However, some of the smaller offerings are tempting, and are probably very good.

So, why would I do this? First of all, I do like to get hands-on with a console. While mixing a song, if I want to duck the vocal at *just this spot* I have to draw that automation in using a DAW. What if I have a horn section, consisting of a half dozen mics, that needs to duck "right here"? I need to group them, then automate that fade. Once I hit the ol' Bounce To Disk, it's completely hands-off. Instead, while mixing down thru an analog console, I could just pull those fader moves. Granted, there's no recall if I ever have to re-mix that session, and every mixdown would sound different.

The second part -- how it sounds. I'm not saying it's better or worse, but analog electronics do have a sound to them that's hard to replicate in software. I've tried... My Waves Renaissance EQ just doesn't have the fat sounds I'm used to hearing on albums such as John Mayer's "Battle Studies" (which was recorded on John's Neve console). Waves Renaissance Compressor is difficult to get proper results out of. Or maybe I just need better plugs (Sonnox Oxford Comp and EQ sound a lot better, I'll admit).

I can't prognosticate what will happen to large format consoles and large format rooms; there are some productions that demand such equipment and spaces. But most of the garbage on the top-40 stations today could be manufactured in someone's garage. A couple of keyboards, a hard drive full of virtual instruments and samples, someone who groks Pro Tools, and maybe a vocal mic in a tiny iso booth for some girl with a skinny waist and big tits to caterwaul into so that the PT engineer can auto-tune it into something resembling singing.

Anyway... I digress. There will always be a place for consoles, in my estimation. Maybe not as big of a place, but a place nonetheless.

DeciBill

29 Jun 2010, 17:53

It bums me out when people take their frustrations about what's being played on the radio out on Pro Tools.

Adam, I can understand that the Renaissance EQ's and compressors don't always work. We know it's important to have a diverse palette of tools. I'm just saying I strongly doubt sitting in front of a console will solve the problem. If you want a closer comparison to a Neve, try the Waves Vintage series EQ's. I will not say they are exact replicas of an old analog Neve channel, but they sound great in their own right.

I guess we are in two different worlds. Some people seem to not have the opportunity to work on a console that often. Maybe the novelty is intriguing. I spend my days in a building with several consoles and I refuse to work on them. It has never negatively affected my work.

Halfway Competent

30 Jun 2010, 13:46

Don't get me wrong, I don't blame Pro Tools; I blame the engineers who are getting too clever with it. I use Pro Tools, myself, and think it's a great tool.

Danny de Matos

18 Jul 2010, 20:34

@ Sean Eldon
Dude, you're gonna have to change the way you're thinking or you won't be working in the industry ever again... surely nobody can work effectively with that kinda angst in the room. Get the chip off your shoulder fella, you'll be better off without it
I'm not intending to be difficult but you're temper tantrums won't get you any work, no matter how hard you stamp your feet and yell.
Sometimes people use a worm to catch a bigger fish, oftentimes it works.
Please understand that anyone would be wanting to get paid for every part of what they do. In the world I live in I can no longer charge what I used to, not even half... so I charge a fee as a producer per track and throw in the recording time for free. Yep, 'cos otherwise I wouldn't work hardly at all.That's the way I have to sell it
Points? They went out of the window 5 years ago for me
Maybe you haven't fully grasped what is going on out there. It's a killiing field
It's practically all over as far as record labels are concerned. Only the top end is paying anything at all and if like me you specialise in new signings/development acts, indie bands, you gotta re-adjust. So now I do even more private jobs also, sometimes with bands and artists that aren't even signed yet to either management or any label. Have to - I have a family to support.

It's the way it is and I gotta deal with it no matter whether I like it or not.
Only this week I heard of a major that has offered a major band £1000 UK to remix a 20 year old re-issue album... that won't even pay for the baking of the tapes or transfer!
The management response was to quietly go away and then refer back saying that yeah, they'd like to go with it if the label could please find someone to do it for that level of fee. (Sure they won't and they'll have to up it but it gives you an idea of how stuff it being thought out these days)

Going back to the original premis of this thread... working large format consoles.. ah yes I remember that, just like I remember when bands owned they own airplane and merchandising... heady days... long gone

P.S. You have no right to make a living by recording or producing artists... it's a priviledge
We'd all do well to remember this sometimes. Maybe, even you, and before you threaten people with violence, open your eyes, your ears and walk in someone else's shoes for a while. Perhaps even the A&R guy who no longer has a proper budget to get the job done 'cos the sales aren't there anymore.

seaneldon

20 Jul 2010, 19:51

Change the way I'm thinking...?

I think I should get paid for work that I do as I'm doing it. I shouldn't think like that? How much more realistic can you fucking get? If I wanted to stamp my feet and yell, I'd hang out in Allston and complain to musicians, not to a few people who read a small message board about recording. I'm way more effective as a man than that.

I don't have a little project studio in my house like you do. I live in an apartment in Boston with paper-thin walls. The wife's coital screams keep my elderly-Russian-lady neighbor from sleeping calmly throughout the night. I work out of actual recording studios as a freelance engineer. I am paid by the day or by the project separate from the recording studio which someone else has poured a couple hundred grand into to build, open, and maintain. As of now I'm working about ten days a month...it's VERY hard out here when all the college kids go home.

I do end up bringing a couple mics to rehearsal spaces to do overdubs. Bands have their own little setups and that's how I've adjusted...if they run out of money, the session leaves the studio. I don't have to adjust by NOT GETTING PAID for DOZENS OF HOURS OF WORK.

That has happened exactly two times in the last 4 months, though. I'm good at getting the sound off the floor...in and out of the studio in 3-5 days.

It's not a privilege to be paid for a skill. Rather, this thing of ours is more like a "survival of the fittest" situation. The people who actually have bills to pay (ie: people who DON'T have a Guitar Center studio in their basement) who think they can get by without getting paid will have shitty lives and turn out shitty product, and then they'll go away. People like me who curse the bottomfeeders, take pride in their craft, and receive payment for showing up for the day and doing a great job will stick around.

Not homeless yet, by the way! Got a couple fun gigs and had a great time doing them, AND I got paid every single day that I worked! Imagine that...being paid for your time...

What a chip I have on this shoulder of mine. How dare I demand such extraordinary things?!?

Zachg

20 Jul 2010, 20:37

Question here: why in the recording industry does it seem like an accepted (by some, anyway) practice to not be payed for all the work that you do? If i understand you correctly Danny, the producer works for a fee than his engineering is free? In what other industries would someone only charge for half ( not exact figure) of their work? Hell, all my friends working at Mcdonalds get paid for all their work...

Not joking/attempting to piss anyone off, im dead serious here.

Zach

seaneldon

20 Jul 2010, 21:06

Actual producers are not often the ones doing the recording. They have other things to focus on. Recording engineers get paid to record.

And c'mon Zach, you know there's no such thing as McDonalds in Canada. All you have is Tim Horton's.

Speaking of Tim Horton's, here's a picture of some T.H. chicken noodle soup I was eating in Canada while getting paid to do a record for two weeks. I didn't work a single day for free, and actually had the band pay for my travel in both directions. Wow! Surely this must have been some sort of a lottery package!!! How can I live without adjusting to working for free?!?!?

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/4731/canada02.gif

Sandyrb

20 Jul 2010, 23:25

I'd like to add my 10 cents at this point.

Much as I sometimes turn favorable deals for my best repeat clients, I work as both an engineer and a producer and I get paid for both. I get my engineering time from the studio and I get my production fee from the client. When I do both, I get both.

This arrangement does not seem at all unreasonable to me! Heck, how else am I supposed to save up for my Aston Martin? :p

(BTW this also allows me the flexibility to pass decent work to the other lads which, because I'm the studio manager, is only right and fair.)

So this whole thing about working for free... As in taking a production fee but not charging studio / engineering? I don't think it holds much water. Without wanting to offend or impugn anyone I would dare to suggest that giving valuable work away for free speaks negatively as to the quality of it. I know times are tough and we're all having to eke out a living as best we can... so the advice I feel led to offer may well be "find better clients"!

To be fair and balanced I will say this; Danny, I lived in the UK for 38 years and I know that things are much tougher there for recordists. So please don't think I don't understand... but you seem like a talented, switched-on dude and the WORLD is your oyster... Just sayin', like.

To be further fair and balanced I know that there are a lot of sh*tty little w*nkers about who rent out their cruddy hole-in-the-ground basement "studio" for $75 a song and - because the client is frequently either stupid, a cheap b*st*rd or simply uneducated - thereby deplete the pool of available work for the rest of us. That SUCKS but as it is a fact of life these days I think it behoves us as professional recordists to make a clear disctinction that we provide the REAL THING... premium quality, professional recording with superior results. But that's down to marketing, right?

Okay I know that was actually 12.7 cents but I sometimes go over budget on a project like this. ;)

Cheers,

Mixwell

21 Jul 2010, 00:28

we provide the REAL THING... premium quality, professional recording with superior results.

http://sagamorejournal.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/war_face1.jpg

So LET ME SEE YOUR WAR FACE
btheadbtheadbtheadbtheadbthead
:dio_1::dio_1::dio_1::dio_1:

Danny de Matos

21 Jul 2010, 06:47

Mixwell

21 Jul 2010, 11:15

From what I'm reading, you guys all seem way more confident, experienced, knowledgeable and talented than I am.
If I had all those kinda things in my arsenal then I guess I might think different. I don't.
Looks like I'm certainly not blessed with the qualities and self-assuredness required to be that confident (or angry) about what I do.
'Cos I don't have them, I do what I can the way I can, in order to survive.

I hope your uncompromising vision and infinite confidence in your abilities, continue to bring you all the success you desire.
See you in the charts.

My very best wishes to you all

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa Danny- Do I detect some defensiveness or sarcasm?

Hard to tell from the postings.

If so - I think you may have stepped into the bar where they only serve whiskey, and by the bottle.

We are all very passionate around here [the few fellows who post and hang anyway], and we may be defensive but it is only because we want to continue to exist in our niche markets that we have bread for ourselves.

P.S. You have no right to make a living by recording or producing artists... it's a priviledge

I do NOT agree that it is a privileged luxury to work as an engineer.

It is BLUE COLLAR BRAIN DRAINING LABORIOUS WORK that PEOPLE DOING QUALITY WORK SHOULD BE PAID QUALITY COMPENSATION FOR.

I for one take large pride in my work as an engineer, even though I feel every aspect can always be better than it actually is.

Its just an attitude to take, and in my experience it has served me well to keep the price high and the product over the top better than someone else's.

That's why I am getting paid - to do it better than someone else.

Surely - we are just having a chat/discussion about the general assumptions made in that large format rooms will no longer exist and somehow we ventured off into "work for hire" rules. This is healthy discourse as far as I am concerned, as it shows there are many shades of grey and different strokes for different folks.

I was just reading a post over @ PSW R/E/P; in the thread - what's the most expensive piece of gear you've purchased and there is one fellow who chimed in to tell us about the $135K+ for a new Neve 8232 w/Mastermix automation, and how happy he was about it. Do you think he won't recoup his investment? Where did he even get the 135K to begin with? I dunno; but what I do know is that large format rooms are not going away. Just the ones that don't have a proper business plan, and foresight to keep the doors swinging open.

Sandyrb

21 Jul 2010, 12:29

Give this man a party hat! :)

I do NOT agree that it is a privileged luxury to work as an engineer.

Whilst I'm totally with you on this Adam, I will say this: THANK GOD it is as enjoyable a job as it is because it makes it feel like a privileged luxury and I count my blessings every day! Holy cow I could be cleaning toilets somewhere... which fact makes it feel VERY privileged even though, as you rightly say:
It is BLUE COLLAR BRAIN DRAINING LABORIOUS WORK that PEOPLE DOING QUALITY WORK SHOULD BE PAID QUALITY COMPENSATION FOR.

Amen! Preach all night brother Adam!

I for one take large pride in my work as an engineer, even though I feel every aspect can always be better than it actually is.

Agreed. Herein lies the "tension" of our work. To quote Lindsay Buckingham's famous words, a little mantra by which I have chosen to conduct my professional life, "If you're any good at all, you know you can be better."

Its just an attitude to take, and in my experience it has served me well to keep the price high and the product over the top better than someone else's. That's why I am getting paid - to do it better than someone else.

And I think the same is true of anyone who takes pride in their work but ESPECIALLY in creative fields like ours. What we do is just as serious and professional as any other occupation and we deserve whatever reward, recognition and respect we can earn.

Now... how come someone who buys a pair of scissors doesn't think they're a hair stylist but everyone who buys a computer and audio software thinks they're the next Mutt Lange? Go figure. If I had the answer to that question I think I might be able to work out a solution which would benefit all of us here. :)

Cheers,

Mixwell

21 Jul 2010, 13:43

Now... how come someone who buys a pair of scissors doesn't think they're a hair stylist but everyone who buys a computer and audio software thinks they're the next Mutt Lange? Go figure. If I had the answer to that question I think I might be able to work out a solution which would benefit all of us here. :)

Cheers,

What's the difference between a hair stylist and a producer?

They both yell "cut" and snip the tracks, so I'm thinking they are of the same ilk,

Pato

21 Jul 2010, 15:02

Everybody thought that analog tape machines where obsolete and started selling them on ebay as soon as pro tools became the "standard" and now they are back in the game again

check this:

http://www.endlessanalog.com/what-is-clasp

im sure that big analog mixers will follow this path, if you already have it and sounds good, dont get rid of it, if you dont have one, maybe there are options for you, like buying a summing mixer or a small format (16channel) quality console and integrate that with your daw.

Only experience can tell you what you need, maybe you only need 16 simultaneous inputs for recording, maybe 8 or 12, maybe you can get away with murder and do most of your mixing with 24 or 16 channels, maybe you dont need a big ass recording space, maybe just a medium or small size is enough, when you finaly decide what you need then you have to put in the balance cost of your needs over the profit you can make and make some compromises... what can you live without? what do you must definetly have?

In the end it is your responsability to have the best stuff within the parameters i mentioned above and try to evolve and move forward.

My 2 cents

Mixwell

21 Jul 2010, 16:13

R2a8TRSgzZY

burnthair donethat

26 Jul 2010, 07:42

Its just an attitude to take, and in my experience it has served me well to keep the price high and the product over the top better than someone else's.

the cause for so much gratification and pain in my life.

Baz

03 Aug 2010, 21:30

I've hit a rough patch in the last few months. I got laid off from a kush gig I thought I'd retire with, and had to fend for myself. I went and spent money I didn't have in the first place to go to shows and meet musicians, hang out at guitar shops to talk with people who sound like they have a clue, get back in touch with old clients and friends, all this and that...

I made enough money to barely make rent for 3 months. If I did not charge for my services, I'd be homeless. If I don't land a good record or pick up a 9-5 in the next 2 weeks I WILL be homeless.

Sorry to read about the hard times, Sean. I feel for ya. This line of work is such a grind and I think the only reason I've been able to survive, is my primary client's client base is a very non-traditional pool. So we're mostly always working in a development type situation and while it offers very little gratification as far as the music is concerned, at least it pays and I keep my fingers in the trade. I'm always looking for outside gigs, but these can be few and far between at times and freelancing only compounds the difficulty of staying competitive.

You're a very talented guy so I'm sure the worm will turn for ya. Best of luck

Danny de Matos

06 Sep 2010, 17:31

An interesting article from The Times (London)

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/media/article6301542.ece

One point to note however, since the article was written and ended on an optimistic note, the last 'large format' studio mentioned now offers music production tuition in order to try and survive.

Ian_lv

07 Sep 2010, 13:40

Well, I feel that there has been a major decline in the quality of music since somewhere around the late 90's. Furthermore the fake sounding-digital-pop-rock-band-generic recording sound makes me want to blow my brains out. Also. In this lack of attention to details like "honesty" in music, it seems that music is becoming less important than it perhaps was before to the fans (consumers) (not including the beiber fever phenomenon). In this day and age of prepackaged, automated, sampled, tuned, mastered for myspace, written for a & r's, remixed, E-tard-bubble-gum-wirelessguitar-amaerican-apparel-teenie-creamie-panties-generation *stops for breath* I think everything just might come around full circle when people decide they don't care to listen to timmy and jimmy and .... lenny copy fall out boy with some equally bad engineer/QOUTE producer QOUTE using superior drummer to make them sound like they can play their instruments.

Real music might just happen in real studios on real equipment again.

but I guess I wouldn't count on it. And taylor swift can go eat a box of donuts for all I care.