SCA pres made the mix come together easier

[Halfway Competent]

Background: I bought some Seventh Circle Audio preamps; four of the N72 (Neve wannabes), and four of the J99 (Jensen Twin Servo, with the SCA99 op-amp).

I took them out Friday night on their maiden voyage to record a local jazz quintet.

To put it succinctly: I'm not working with :poo: anymore. I feel like I'm an engineer now, almost!

The bass in this mix is a little outta control; I tried taming it but couldn't quite get it there. Upright bass through a pickup (it was live), into an N72.

Input list:
Saxes: AT4033 thru N72
Guitar: AT4047 thru N72
Bass: Upright with a pickup, thru Mesa amp, thru N72.
Drums:
O/H L/R: SM94 thru J99
Kick : EV PL80a thru J99

As with all my mixes, it sounds better at louder volume. How do I make it sound nice at lower volumes? Do I need to compress it?

http://www.tewsnet.com/dropbox/M5-sample.mp3

[Sandyrb]

As with all my mixes, it sounds better at louder volume.

Everything sounds better when it's at louder volume, except the wife when she's on the warpath. :)

Seriously mate, this is a gorgeous piece of work, I love it. Carry on!

Cheers,

[Mixwell]

It sounds like the room, music, and audience is right in front of me.

Can I pay you to upload the rest of the set? Great work!!!!

[Halfway Competent]

It sounds like the room, music, and audience is right in front of me.

Can I pay you to upload the rest of the set? Great work!!!!

Thanks!

The rest of it isn't quite ready yet... Probably another week, since this was a side project and I have a full week ahead.

I could probably send you a CD, if the band is cool with it (they agreed to let me use the recording for my portfolio in exchange for a free recording).

Glad you like it! Still need to find that bass resonance and lessen it...

[Halfway Competent]

Everything sounds better when it's at louder volume, except the wife when she's on the warpath. :)

Seriously mate, this is a gorgeous piece of work, I love it. Carry on!

Cheers,

Thanks Sandy!

I put basically no comp on this; I didn't want to lose that live, you are there feeling. But as a consequence, I gotta jack up the vol on playback. I've heard some recordings where it sounded live, yet loud enough... dunno how to do that.

[Mixwell]

As with all my mixes, it sounds better at louder volume. How do I make it sound nice at lower volumes? Do I need to compress it?

Hey Adam, I'm not really hearing any issues with the bass on my small computer speakers. I will have to listen on the Twins later today.

I will also note that this mix level is more than fine, in fact perfectly optimal, for which I decide to listen loudly myself, I can just turn it up with lots of headroom and no distortion.

That's the way I've been working lately, though I am finding extremely subtle compression at the last stage of my very average level mix, is making things way better for translation to outside systems. Its helping to bring up the lower level detail of the sounds, and control the RMS density of my program much better. Personally, You might not even need any compression on this, maybe just a little clean gain to help focus the lower level stuff and control "where the listener moves the most optimal quadrant of their volume knob", and nothing to do with squashing the peak and dynamic [which is really good dry]...

I would not use more than 1.5 Ratio, with extremely high threshold, just "kissing" it every so gently...and then raising the output to acceptable level. Cartoons are good for this, becasue they add no noise, other than what is already there within the floor. I've been VERY attached to our Foote P3S, on the 2-buss [I mix analog] since it leaves ZERO residual effect at small amounts of compression. I've been adding 8 DB to my mixes and it makes them eight inches closer to your face. Maybe its the output iron, anyway, I Love the thing and its my new secret weapon!!!

Thanks!

The rest of it isn't quite ready yet... Probably another week, since this was a side project and I have a full week ahead.

I could probably send you a CD, if the band is cool with it (they agreed to let me use the recording for my portfolio in exchange for a free recording).

Glad you like it! Still need to find that bass resonance and lessen it...

That would be great! They sound awesome in this clip. Definitely a good sounding recording for sure!! One that will be great for your portfolio.

Hope this helps....

[bleen]

I would not use more than 1.5 Ratio, with extremely high threshold, just "kissing" it every so gently...and then raising the output to acceptable level. Cartoons are good for this, becasue they add no noise, other than what is already there within the floor. I've been VERY attached to our Foote P3S, on the 2-buss [I mix analog] since it leaves ZERO residual effect at small amounts of compression. I've been adding 8 DB to my mixes and it makes them eight inches closer to your face. Maybe its the output iron, anyway, I Love the thing and its my new secret weapon!!!

Mmmmmmm...love the Foote!!!!

[Halfway Competent]

Mmmmmmm...love the Foote!!!!

You have a Foote fetish?
:D

[Dylansdad]

I think you have a handle on this one, Too often we try to mix everything like rock and pop. Jazz needs more room to bloom, maybe a kiss of compression, but don't stomp on it.
What Mixwell said is pretty much it, its also why I think the modern DBX160s are a great teaching tool the meters are some of the best at showing what is going on, if only they sounded as great as the metering!

[Mixwell]

You have a Foote fetish?
:D

Nice one!

:eek:

[bleen]

You have a Foote fetish?
:D

And damn proud of it!:D

[Ryan Slowey]

Sounds great man. Love the ambience of the audience in the background. Also, one of my favorite Nick Drake tunes.

Sounds like a nice arrangement. I'd love to hear the whole thing.

[Halfway Competent]

Sounds great man. Love the ambience of the audience in the background. Also, one of my favorite Nick Drake tunes.

Sounds like a nice arrangement. I'd love to hear the whole thing.

Wow, lot of interest in the music! I'll be sure to let the band know -- they'll be stoked. The final mix turned out pretty well... It wouldn't surprise me if the band decides to actually sell it.

When I find out what they want to do with it, I'll let you all know... They might let me post all the MP3s, who knows. If they decide to sell the CD, I'll get you the details. :)

[pauly]

To put it succinctly: I'm not working with :poo: anymore. I feel like I'm an engineer now, almost!

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its amazing how much less work it is having a nice front end. i was also lucky to start with less than ideal equipment and then move into a nice setup.

also building your own stuff is one of the best things you can do, i just built an eisen audio pre with the help of a friend and i'm stoked. i cant wait to build more stuff. the drip audio la2a is high on my list.

and the audio by the way is awsome nice vibe.

[pauly]

I think you have a handle on this one, Too often we try to mix everything like rock and pop. Jazz needs more room to bloom, maybe a kiss of compression, but don't stomp on it.

i agree:)

[Tim Farrant]

I reckon you do not need to compress the whole thing. To me the horns are alittle too dynamic and so just compressing those a little would put them into a better perspective with the rest of the band. They sound like they are mic-ed fairly closely, yes?

[Halfway Competent]

I reckon you do not need to compress the whole thing. To me the horns are alittle too dynamic and so just compressing those a little would put them into a better perspective with the rest of the band. They sound like they are mic-ed fairly closely, yes?

About a foot or two away. I actually tried compressing just the horns, but it brought the drums up too much... and there was too much room sound on them from those mics. I agree, though, the horns are probably more dynamic than they need to be. Might be worth another try.

[Tim Farrant]

About a foot or two away. I actually tried compressing just the horns, but it brought the drums up too much... and there was too much room sound on them from those mics. I agree, though, the horns are probably more dynamic than they need to be. Might be worth another try.

4-5 dB max gain reduction on the loudest portions is all it needs to my ears, which should not overly bring out the spill. A nice opto style comp would be the story.

[joshfeldman]

This is great! A pleasure to listen to. One of the few examples of a live recording that I've heard where the crowd noise actually adds to the sound rather than detracts from it.

You've inspired me to spend some time researching SCA and on their website. Right now I feel like down the road these pre's would be a great investment and learning experience. On the SCA site they said that one who wants to build the board should have some practice and understanding ahead of time. I'm on a trip visiting some family and am among some physics nerds who I've pestered for advice however I didn't get much from them. Do any of you guys have any suggestions as to a starting place to improve soldering skills, electricity knowledge and learn about these (or other) boards?

[Halfway Competent]

This is great! A pleasure to listen to. One of the few examples of a live recording that I've heard where the crowd noise actually adds to the sound rather than detracts from it.

You've inspired me to spend some time researching SCA and on their website. Right now I feel like down the road these pre's would be a great investment and learning experience. On the SCA site they said that one who wants to build the board should have some practice and understanding ahead of time. I'm on a trip visiting some family and am among some physics nerds who I've pestered for advice however I didn't get much from them. Do any of you guys have any suggestions as to a starting place to improve soldering skills, electricity knowledge and learn about these (or other) boards?

If you've soldered up a PCB, and have done a clean job of it, you can solder up these preamp kits. You should know how to measure voltage and resistance with a DMM. You should also know how to read a schematic. If your stuff doesn't work on powerup, that schematic will greatly help your troubleshooting.

For basic electricity knowledge, you could try this book from Radio Shack:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3433933

I haven't read it, but I've read some of the other books (field guides, if you will), which were well-done.

If you've not soldered up a PCB before, I suggest starting with a really basic, inexpensive kit:
http://www.arcade-electronics.com/velleman_kits.aspx

And tools... A good, fine-tipped soldering iron is essential. A $25 pencil from Home Depot is not the right tool here! SCA recommends a particular Hakko iron. I've not used it but have heard good things. I used a Weller soldering station (WESD51), which is fantastic.

Any of these will work great:
Hakko 936: http://www.frys.com/product/454489
Weller WES51: http://www.frys.com/product/3597924
Weller WESD51: http://www.frys.com/product/3598004

I'd read over Tim's assembly FAQ on the SCA website for info about what solder and iron tip to use.

He says a magnifying lamp, and a Panavise are "optional but nice". Yes, you could assemble these projects without the magnifying lamp and Panavise, but they make the project SO MUCH EASIER that I consider both to be essential.

Best of luck! If you've got more questions about assembly, I'm happy to share what I learned along the way of putting these things together. I had a lot of fun doing it!

[joshfeldman]

Woah! I asked for a starting place and you've given me a great one, thank you kindly!

I visited a bookstore today and picked up barrons electronics - the easy way. It's comprehensive and pretty well written, in most places. It took me all afternoon, discussing with my parents and family and think I have my head wrapped around the basic concepts. The book goes fairly deep, at least it seems that way, covering schematics etc. I hope to finish it by the end of the week and when I get home I'll pick up some of those simpler PCB's and get some practice in.

Learning about this has been fun enough already, I can only imagine how great it will be to actually build this stuff... Though my studio shopping list has a few things ahead of the pre's, maybe I'll buy them by the end of the year. That should give me some time to really know what I'm doing.

[Halfway Competent]

Woah! I asked for a starting place and you've given me a great one, thank you kindly!

I visited a bookstore today and picked up barrons electronics - the easy way. It's comprehensive and pretty well written, in most places. It took me all afternoon, discussing with my parents and family and think I have my head wrapped around the basic concepts. The book goes fairly deep, at least it seems that way, covering schematics etc. I hope to finish it by the end of the week and when I get home I'll pick up some of those simpler PCB's and get some practice in.

Learning about this has been fun enough already, I can only imagine how great it will be to actually build this stuff... Though my studio shopping list has a few things ahead of the pre's, maybe I'll buy them by the end of the year. That should give me some time to really know what I'm doing.

What is ahead of the pres, out of curiosity? These pres made such a HUGE difference in how this stuff came out... My reaction was, "Wow, I didn't know these mics sounded this good!" Even the lowly SM-57 sounds good thru these things! Particularly thru the N72.

[joshfeldman]

First I need some decent monitors; I'm ashamed to admit that I've only been using headphones thus far.

After the monitors I'm look at either Coles 4050's or SCA pre's and an I/O interface. I'm looking at a lot of money either way, so I'll buy one and wait a while until I get the other. Both my mic's and processing seriously need improvement, my best sounding mic's are AGK c300b's which no longer suit my ears/standards and they go into a firepod.

[Halfway Competent]

First I need some decent monitors; I'm ashamed to admit that I've only been using headphones thus far.

After the monitors I'm look at either Coles 4050's or SCA pre's and an I/O interface. I'm looking at a lot of money either way, so I'll buy one and wait a while until I get the other. Both my mic's and processing seriously need improvement, my best sounding mic's are AGK c300b's which no longer suit my ears/standards and they go into a firepod.

You'll be amazed at the sound quality waiting to be unlocked in your mics by just plugging in to some decent pres. I'd get pres before mics; hell, even an sm57 sounds good through the likes of the N72!

[Mixwell]

You'll be amazed at the sound quality waiting to be unlocked in your mics by just plugging in to some decent pres. I'd get pres before mics; hell, even an sm57 sounds good through the likes of the N72!

Very true. Karl [NPNG] and I were talking about this very thing, where you use SM57's and SM58's through his preamp [NPNG] and everything sounds better than you thought it could or would because you are hearing more into the transducer and thus the stuff in front of it. I agree preamps make differences; but the microphone is always the most important part of the whole thing, since amplifiers are relative to those devices. But, a good preamp will hopefully never wrench anything on the way to the recorder and keep the sound together.

[Halfway Competent]

Yeah, after lstening to the Motel 5 recording I decided that the horns sound kinda squeaky... I pulled out some 3.5k, which helped... But now that I have great pres, I plan to look at mics next. Just no budget for it right now. That, and there are too many choices! Haha

[Halfway Competent]

Hey guys,

Here's a full track, final mix from that show:
http://www.tewsnet.com/dropbox/Motel5-1-1.mp3