glyn johns drum miking

[noetic]

been doing research on drum kit recording strategies with the intention of recording myself at home. i use only a kick, a snare, and a hihat. i have toms and a couple of cymbals, but i don't need them for what i want to do (simple hiphop and afrocuban inspired beats and breaks).

among the topics i looked into specifically for drum sessions: tuning techniques, heads and snare strands, hihat types, and acoustic treatment. i expect all of these factors to have a significant impact on the end results. i'm trying to get the drums and room to sound as close to my ideal as possible regardless of mics, mic setups, pres, etc.

anyway, i don't have so many mics, and i currently can record no more than 5 mics simultaneously. (i get the sense that that's plenty--particularly for my super stripped down set.) so, looking into low mic count techniques, the glyn johns style came up. reading as much as i could find from online sources, some of ambiguous reputation, i came across more than a couple mentions of the "superiority" of large diaphragm cardiod condensers for the overhead duties in this technique, but with no qualifying explanation.

so my question to those well versed in this scheme: are you of the opinion that large diaphragm cardiod condensers are ideal? And if yes, why? (And if no, why not?)

really, there are three things i'd like to hear your thoughts on: how the glyn johns technique might be influenced by 1) diaphragm size, 2) the polar pattern, and 3) condenser vs. dynamic vs. ribbon vs. anything else in overhead applications. i'm going to have buy/rent mics for overhead duties if i do end up using this technique, so i could really use some experienced perspective. i don't need suggestions of brands or models, more interested in the art and science of recording this way and the potential benefits/consequences of different mic types.

also, if you feel that the glyn johns technique is not appropriate for my sound aesthetic or sparse setup, steering me towards another method would be very helpful.

thanks in advace!

[moose]

If all you want to do is afrobeat & things like hip-hop breaks with just hat, kick & snare you really don't need anything crazy. Kick and an overhead is plenty... add a snare mic if you want to get crazy. Or just kick & snare... or something 'near' the snare...

Hell, one mic with some gnarly compression could be really cool too. I've done various drum kit underdubs with the kit stuffed into a tiny booth, one mic like a U67 smashed through a nice compressor and it sounds great.

Regardless I'm sure that whatever mics you have, as long as they aren't $10 karaoke mics... I'm sure that you'll find two of them that are more then up to the task of recording kick & snare drum.

[Mixwell]

http://www.mercenary.com/3micdrumstuf.html

[seaneldon]

The Glyn Johns technique can be wonderful and has a lot more to do with where exactly the microphones are (in relation to the drums, and to each other) more than what type you're using.

how the glyn johns technique might be influenced by 1) diaphragm size, 2) the polar pattern, and 3) condenser vs. dynamic vs. ribbon vs. anything else in overhead applications.

The same way any other mic technique or mic selection for a particular source is influenced by those things.

While it is great to know the science behind these things and why a this or a that does that or this, these are three very open-ended questions where each answer could absolutely fill a book (with a good and highly knowledgeable author, anyway).

Hearing the effect of the polar pattern is as easy as changing the pattern on a polydirectional mic. With a 9-pattern mic, clicking toward omni will allow more "space" in the sound, and will lessen/eventually get rid of proximity effect. Clicking toward figure-of-eight allows for a more "closed space" (the mic gets more directional but also picks up sound at the rear of the pattern) and gets a little woolier depending on distance from the source.

Really, it all depends.

Everything effects everything.

At least you seem to know that going in!

The Glyn Johns Triangle is a stereo setup. Kick/Snare/Hat's kinda mono...no? I'd probably fly with a single "kit" mic (don't lock yourself into putting a mic over the drums), kick mic, maybe a snare mic if you're looking for the snare to hit you in the gut more.

Start with finding the spot for the "kit" mic. If you have two mics of the same type, put them in radically different positions (for instance: one in front of the drums, one over your shoulder) and A/B them to see which one gets you more in the ballpark. Then, focus on getting the "winning" mic right where you want it.

In one speaker mono, add your kick mic. You're listening in one speaker mono to check for phase issues that will undoubtedly arise when you use more than one mic. The object of this exercise is to find a spot where the phase discrepancy is barely noticeable, especially in lower frequencies. Make sure you don't LOSE crucial bottom when you pull up the fader on the kick mic.

[Sandyrb]

The Glyn Johns Triangle is a stereo setup. Kick/Snare/Hat's kinda mono...no?

Not to cut across your wise words Sean, but I would dare to suggest that — in a standard geometry — even with just three sources there is some diversity of stereo field and that the Glyn Johns technique would probably bring it out well due to the proximity of the left OH to the hats. (Also the right OH tends to get a bit of kick, but that's not usually a good thing.)

However I certainly concede that this technique in this case might result in a somewhat unbalanced stereo field. Still, if it sounds right... etc. :)

Cheers,

[noetic]

thanks for all the good insight, guys. tracking mono never occurred to me, but it makes tons of sense. added bonus is i won't need more mics.

[Mixwell]

Not to cut across your wise words Sean, but I would dare to suggest that — in a standard geometry — even with just three sources there is some diversity of stereo field and that the Glyn Johns technique would probably bring it out well due to the proximity of the left OH to the hats. (Also the right OH tends to get a bit of kick, but that's not usually a good thing.)

However I certainly concede that this technique in this case might result in a somewhat unbalanced stereo field. Still, if it sounds right... etc. :)

Cheers,

Depends on the drummer too, which should a pretty big reason why you put the mikes where you need them.

I'm sure there will be no need to strap a PZM to the chest of an awesome drummer with three mics.

[Sandyrb]

I'm sure there will be no need to strap a PZM to the chest of an awesome drummer with three mics.
But we could, right? Pleeeeeeeeeze? ;)

Cheers,

[Mixwell]

Only if you play 25 toms, 12 crash's, 8 rides, 20 H/H's, 40 Cowbells, 6 snare drums and 10 kick drums. Oh, don't forget the time it takes to practice playing the wind chimes.

[JCBitB]

What kind of sound are you going for? If you want the charm of hearing a human in a room playing drums, the GJ method would probably be awesome. If you want superhuman amounts of thump and thwack in a more "modern" way, try more close miking.

In one speaker mono, add your kick mic. You're listening in one speaker mono to check for phase issues that will undoubtedly arise when you use more than one mic. The object of this exercise is to find a spot where the phase discrepancy is barely noticeable, especially in lower frequencies.

Just to add another approach to this, sometimes it's easier (while in mono) to flip the phase on the mic you're moving and then position the mic till so it sounds the worst or best yet, disappears completely. When you put the phase back to normal it should sound great. I usually do this to find a starting point at least.

[ears2thesky]

During initial tracking of a recent project my lightpipe connection took a shit, and rather than cancel the session to get it sorted out I pulled the 2nd kick, under snare and rack mics to make the first pass (git, bass,drums) all fit onto 8 tracks. This left me with: kick, snare, floor tom (split between 2) and my usual M/S overhead pair. You know what? It sounded awesome. Admittedly this was a Bonhamesque kit and it required a little adjustment, but I got results rivaling any previous tracks I've recorded in this space. While I realize this wasn't exactly the GJ technique, it was a pretty close hybrid.
Plus fewer 24/88.2k tracks don't hurt the CPU either.

[noetic]

What kind of sound are you going for? If you want the charm of hearing a human in a room playing drums, the GJ method would probably be awesome. If you want superhuman amounts of thump and thwack in a more "modern" way, try more close miking.

i've thought about this since i first posted, especially in light of the feedback. superhuman thump is more style-appropriate. the glyn johns method initially intrigued me because it offered good drum sound with just a few mics. i didn't think it all through, the glyn johns works in a very different style

Just to add another approach to this, sometimes it's easier (while in mono) to flip the phase on the mic you're moving and then position the mic till so it sounds the worst or best yet, disappears completely. When you put the phase back to normal it should sound great. I usually do this to find a starting point at least.

this is my typical approach to phase issues. my ears are not so golden; it's much easier to hear massive cancellation than slight. i suspect that it's probably better to find the spots that sound good rather than those that don't, but it works for me.