Purchasing Overhead Mics

[jessepaul]

I'm in the market for a pair of overhead mics. I've narrowed in down to MFG KM-69 or Coles 4038. I love the sound of Ribbon mics but I'd like to keep the purchase under 2 grand. Any thoughts or other opinions?

[Mixwell]

I'm in the market for a pair of overhead mics. I've narrowed in down to MFG KM-69 or Coles 4038. I love the sound of Ribbon mics but I'd like to keep the purchase under 2 grand. Any thoughts or other opinions?

Kit? Room? Placement? Desired texture? With a Figure-Eight Microphones, you are going to be picking up the rear of the diaphragms. This can spell doom in certain situations, but can be a rather amazing blessing in others. The short answer is that it depends. Both of those selections are fantastic for overheads and many other things as well. The KM69 has amazing off-axis rejection, and has a lovely euphony to its response. 4038's are holy grail ribbons for a lot of applications.

[m1a1x1e1r1]

This is not gearslutz.

All would be fine choices of tools to use for different types of music.
Are you looking for versatility, or do you have a specific genre of music or band to cater to?

What type of sound are YOU looking for?

Any examples of past records you might look to for "touch tones?" Pardon my cheesiness.

How's your room? Drums? Player? Drums, especially overheads, and vocals (for me) can be voodoo sometimes. Whatever works.

[jessepaul]

This is not gearslutz.

I'm not allowed to ask others for personal opinions on purchases on this forum? My house kit is a 4 piece yamaha oak custom. I like using spaced pair or XY, I've tried mono overhead with individual mics on hi hat and ride and loved the sound (Kings of Leons song Manhattan is a good example). I record alot of various genres. Yes I'm sure both would be great choices I've heard the sound clips of the MFG KM-69 on acoustics and on just hi hat from their website which sound great. Most of the rooms I work in I haven't had to much problems with picking up the rear of the mic with a figure 8 pattern. I have used the coles 4038 mics and loved the sound. I like a nice crisp overhead sound bit of old school flare is good. In the end I'd like to pick up both pairs ultimately. I think the KM-69s would be a good multi purpose pair to get first.e

[Sandyrb]

I love the sound of Ribbon mics but I'd like to keep the purchase under 2 grand. Any thoughts or other opinions?

Just a thought; have you considered those little Beyer ribbon mics? The M130s. They're not quite up there with the Coles but I've had some extremely pleasing results using them as drum overheads.

Cheers,

[jessepaul]

Hmm no I have not. Beyer didn't even cross my mind for overheads. Thanks for the advice Sandy I'll have to look into the M-130's

[seaneldon]

The M130's are pretty neutral, and they sort of slow down transients in a pleasing fashion. I've had success with these mics over the kit as a Blumlein pair. Their sound is mostly "out of the way", though.

The hypercardioid M160's are notably brighter (3-5kHz bright, not 10-15kHz bright) but are very directional/more sensitive to placement. I've seen guys use them as spaced pairs above the drums but in my opinion this requires a lot of support from the close mics.

The most-used ribbon for overheads here is the AEA R88, a fixed stereo mic. Point the logo badge at the space between the kick and snare, pan left and right, thank me later.

[jessepaul]

The most-used ribbon for overheads here is the AEA R88, a fixed stereo mic. Point the logo badge at the space between the kick and snare, pan left and right, thank me later.

I would feel a bit limited with a fixed stereo pair but if your telling me the stereo imaging is that good. I could live with some limitation. Do you have any sound clips of the AEA R88

[Mixwell]

Here is a pair of 4038's on overs
http://www.movethemics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=94&highlight=Mike+Drums

Hope this helps....

[seaneldon]

I would feel a bit limited with a fixed stereo pair but if your telling me the stereo imaging is that good. I could live with some limitation. Do you have any sound clips of the AEA R88

Aren't you limiting yourself by purchasing microphones specifically for overheads?

That's a lot more limiting than having a fixed stereo mic, in my eyes.

I do have many sounds recorded with our R88. However, while they could be somewhat helpful in your case, I think they'd tell you a bit more about our drums/instruments/room more than the sound of the mic itself.

[m1a1x1e1r1]

There was an article where the producer of the new KOL album talked about everything they used in tracking and mix. Also, they talked about how they used it and where. Very cool article. You may have already read it, but I'll try to find the link anyways.

[Jeff Shapiro]

is KOL Kings of Leon?

[Mixwell]

Killed Over Liquor?

I'm thinking about the intern, sorry.

[m1a1x1e1r1]

Yeah. It's Kings of Leon.

[tekis]

Just got a pair of M260's this summer and I'm pleased with them for OH's. I used them in ORTF to record some rehearsals, and I'm digging them for that too. I used to be a AKG 451 or C24/Neumann KM 84 advocate. Now I find myself attracted to ribbon mics. I also bought a pair of 4038's. We'll see if it's just a phase or a "new leaf."

[Seaneman]

I've been using AEA ribbons as overheads with my favorite studio/engineer of late, after years of the Neumanns, and we love them. We also found that the ribbons do not flatter every drummer. It takes a positive and deliberate tracker to really make them do their thing. I'm not a heavy hitter among heavy hitters, but guys who are inexperienced with the environment of the studio seem to have less luck with the ribbons. We have headroom for days with the Crane Spider, so that's not the issue, it's just not a magic bullet for everyone.

[albert]

Hm, although I have never heard the KM69's in person, I would look into them. The KM69's or some KM84's or KM184's would be great in any mic locker for many things other than drums.

However, let me tell you, my personal favorite is the R88 for drum overhead. The stereo separation is the most beautiful uncolored amazing separation ever. There is no weird off-axis coloration junk, and it just sounds amazing.

It's weird because there is also very little "hollow in the middle" issue compared to other Blumlein setups. It's just the most beautiful amazing stereo image, and I love it so much. :)

I use the R88 VERY successfully on acoustic guitars, drum overheads, piano, and strings.

The R88 brings all things that are recorded through it to life, it just sounds so bloody real I get emotional every time.

I got worked up. . .



P.S. I love using it in M-S just as much as Blumlein, infact, lately I have been doing more M-S than Blumlein with it. (except on drums usually, because for some reason it sounds "boxy" to me on drums sometimes in M-S, I believe it has to do with the specific live room though)

P.P.S. I could send you some stuff I have recorded with the R88 recently :)

[jessepaul]

I use the R88 VERY successfully on acoustic guitars, drum overheads, piano, and strings.The R88 brings all things that are recorded through it to life, it just sounds so bloody real I get emotional every time.I got worked up...:)

I'm liking all this good word of mouth about the R88! Yeah the Km-69's seem like they would be a great addition to my mic locker, maybe down the road i'll get my hands on a pair. I'm thinking the AEA R88 seems like the way to go, fits my price range compared to the Coles 4038 and sounds like everyone is loving the stereo imaging!

Anyone have any experience with the Royer SF-12 stereo mic?

Ps. That would be great to hear some of your recordings with your R88 Albert

[moose]

Anyone have any experience with the Royer SF-12 stereo mic?


That's probably my favorite ribbon for overheads... whenever I hang out a pair of Coles they never fly. Too dark, too murky... too weird. Any sort of ribbon for overheads is an acquired taste I think.

Kinda recently I was in a situation where I had access to a nice 77DX and decided to go with a mono overhead for various reasons. A little EQ, a little squish... I thought it sounded great, nice & smooth with great depth but the artists vetoed it pretty quickly. Went back to a 414 or KM184 or something... tried a few things before we were all happy.

I like ribbons more as room mics...

For overheads I usually wind up with the usual stuff... KM84, AKG 451/460, 414's... Shure VP88 is a faithful standby if you're set on a stereo mic. I like the Blue Dragonflys a whole lot too... they've got a sort of "C12" thing happening with a much fuller bottom end perspective that I like.

I'm with Sean, you should really look for something that get used for more then just "overheads" and will be useful on many sources.

[Ryan Slowey]

Beyer M160s are definitely worth a look, if you can try them out. Amazing on so many things, including OHs. I recently finished up a mix where I used them in ORTF over the kit, and it's one of the best sounding drum recordings I've done.

They are especially great in live tracking situations, as their rejection is outstanding.

A pair of Josephson C42s would be worth a look as well. Very useful mics. Make a great OH pair. Very crisp, clear, detailed.

[seaneldon]

whenever I hang out a pair of Coles they never fly. Too dark, too murky... too weird.

They are very rolled off up top, but with those mics I've found the "boom boom boom" bottom can be tamed a bit to make what little HF content there is seem more apparent. Also, a HF shelf with a good clean EQ on 4038's is a wonderful thing...kinda counteracts the phase shift inherent in the mic's roll-off.

Any sort of ribbon for overheads is an acquired taste I think.

Why is that? Because you're used to hearing snappier and brighter mics up there? Wouldn't THAT be an acquired taste as well?

Isn't pretty much all of this based on taste?

It's not like we get hired for our ears or something.

I like ribbons more as room mics...

Again...why is that? If you could be specific as to why, perhaps more people could identify with you. Ribbon mics can work anywhere the engineer is capable of making them work. Same with all other microphones.

I'm with Sean

Me too.

[moose]

It's not like we get hired for our ears or something.


We're not?!

Holy moly. Learn something new everyday!

Lemme see if I can elaborate a bit...

Yeah, I guess with ribbons & the Coles (specifically) I can always insert an EQ and roll out the bottom... add a bunch of top end etc. and turn 'em into something but I'd rather start with mics that sound closer to what I want to hear.

Frankly I've tried the 4038's a handful of times and usually if my artists are 'picky' about sounds they get pulled for not having enough detail or sounding "murky" 9 times out of 10. Maybe I can keep one over the center of the kit & do something cool with it... but 9 times out of 10 we end with condensers of some sort as the main overheads.

As for the 'snappier & brighter' thing you might be right... but I think that's more about conditioning then anything else. I got tuned into the sound of tossing some 451's or U87's over the kit early on in my formative years... and I dunno... the "brighter" thing IS more 'modern' sounding. A little more in tune with peoples preconceptions of drum sounds & modern records where they get some sparkle off the brass.

Sort of like how as a species, we've been hearing a Les Paul into a Marshall for quite a few decades, so we hear that combo and say "yeah! That rocks!" I don't think drum sounds are any different.

I mean, if I turned in a heavy rock record where I had used just 3 or 4 mics on the kit and it sounded like 1967, people probably wouldn't be too happy although I'd love to do something like that.

Goes back to that 'expectations' thing... another part of the reason we're hired... for the expected results based on past results.

Part of the reasons I like ribbon mics for the room is for the rolled off top... they naturally downplay the cymbals and the low-mid focus adds some meat to the drums. They survive compression better especially if I've got a guy who beats the crap outta the cymbals. They always seem to 'mesh' well with the rest of the drum tones... and I've also never had anyone say that they sound "weird" half a day into tracking.

I also like using ribbons on all sorts of guitars, horns... vocals (though I've also had artists veto them there) and all sorts of other sources.

The one place they never seem to live on my productions is overheads. Occasionally I'll get away with it but usually not. Maybe 1 in 30...

Hope that's enlightening.

[seaneldon]

Moose, you're a good guy, but what you're pouting above is bullshit and is one of only things that can make this gig boring.

EQ'ing a mic a bit is not "turning it into something".

Maybe if frequency response was the only aspect of sound...but it isn't.

Ribbons deal with transients a bit slower than a condenser...but if the drummer does a press roll with a ribbon above him, you can still hear every single part of the press. It won't miss anything. Also, I think the abundant HF content of a condenser kind of skews your ears as to how much transient is actually happening.

The "speed" of a microphone on the drums only becomes useful to me with the close mics. This is why I prefer condensers on kick/snare/toms 95% of the time.

In another thread here I briefly spoke about how homogenized and inbred a lot of music is becoming...worse than ever really. How someone expects or initially demands something to sound has a lot to do with this and really, it doesn't take much more than a suggestion and then a GREAT SOUND to change a musician's mind.

There is nothing more boring than going for a fucking "SEVENDUST DRUM SOUND" or "WEEZER GUITAR SOUND" or "COLDPLAY VOCAL". Ripping off things that were ripped off to begin with.

Homogenization. Fucking boring.

Make it work like a motherfucker in the SONG, not the GENRE.

Yes, you give the client what the client wants...but of course the engineer has some say in what goes down, especially if it's a sound the engineer really loves and thinks is working in the song.

I mean, if I turned in a heavy rock record where I had used just 3 or 4 mics on the kit and it sounded like 1967, people probably wouldn't be too happy although I'd love to do something like that.

I think you would be quite surprised that if you did this, it would be the ONLY "heavy rock" record that a whole shit load of people would want to listen to. If you did it right.

Also,

It's not like we get hired for our ears or something.

I meant this to be extremely sarcastic. Over the internet, it's tough to tell whether or not you picked up on that.

[Tomasz]

I mean, if I turned in a heavy rock record where I had used just 3 or 4 mics on the kit and it sounded like 1967, people probably wouldn't be too happy although I'd love to do something like that.

You might be surprised. That style of music is one of the few left where people still actually care and buy recorded music.
If you'd love to do it, try it next time if the band and vision permits.

[jessepaul]

Yes, you give the client what the client wants...but of course the engineer has some say in what goes down, especially if it's a sound the engineer really loves and thinks is working in the song.

Moose "I mean, if I turned in a heavy rock record where I had used just 3 or 4 mics on the kit and it sounded like 1967, people probably wouldn't be too happy although I'd love to do something like that."

I think you would be quite surprised that if you did this, it would be the ONLY "heavy rock" record that a whole shit load of people would want to listen to. If you did it right.

This speaks for itself but it just needed to be quoted.

I know my thread was titled purchasing overhead mics and that was my key purpose for my purchase and asking for opinions but since when has any one mic been used for only one purpose? Just needed to clear that up.

Also i'm grateful for everyones input this has only made me more aware of what i'm looking for. I will say looking through this thread has made me aware of how opinioned mic choices are and its just down to personal taste. Getting a peak into everyones taste has been very educational and helpful.

Thanks to all for the input!

[moose]

Also,
\It's not like we get hired for our ears or something.


I meant this to be extremely sarcastic. Over the internet, it's tough to tell whether or not you picked up on that.


Nah, I got that & laughed... shit doesn't always come through well on the interknot.

Look, to say that I'm touting "homogenization" is digging deep and reading into something that simply isn't there. Even if I get someone who wants the 'Nickleofacreedback' impact I'm gonna go out of my way to make nods to that stuff but NOT resort to the same old tired methods or instantly reach for a bunch of samples.

To that end, I don't have a tracking room so I'm always in different places. My situation is more like a studio without a studio... or maybe "instant studio" since just about everything is flight cases. Makes it kinda hard to do the same thing every time... and yeah, that would get kinda boring.

I've done plenty of 4-mic drum stuff even recently. Sometime it works and sometimes it doesn't... hell, doing some demos for my own project (going in dribs & drabs) I used a VP88 for the kit. Just the one stereo mic. The guy running the DAW (I wanted little to do with it) kept asking if it was ok...

It was cool. Had a vibe. I heard drums & wasn't offended... not sure I'd do a whole record like that. Maybe for a song or two.

The engineer has some choice & impact on the sounds of a session... the producer has more but the buck stops with the artist. If they aren't digging something and request a change then sure, we can throw down & defend the choice but if they're really unhappy & not performing then ultimately there's two paths of resolution...

Either make a change & make 'em happy. Or stick to our guns and impede progress. So really we've got one choice!

I don't know about your or anyone else's sessions but I generally let the artists get 'hands-on' with the gear and twist the knobbies if there's something they want that I'm not getting. At the least everyone sits at the console & throws faders around. That's how the 77DX got nixed... they listened, didn't like it half way through the first day of tracking... I defended my choice (based on initial requests) but they wanted something else.

Whatever. Its not a big deal to me... so we go through a handful of mics until we landed on something were everyone's happy. That's the way its supposed to work... or at least I think so!

Anyway, this is all pretty long winded to say that I'm not a fan of the Coles for overheads... its been my experience that if I have to drop in a 3 or 4 band EQ and tweak it with pliers, I probably have the wrong mic or wrong source or wrong combination of something.

[Mixwell]

Or stick to our guns and impede progress.

I have found that being able to communicate with my client in a tactful respectful manor, about the process, about their desires, and everything that involves the project, allows all of us to ease our mind's, with the fact that the best interest is at heart with their recordings and music. These discussions in pre-production help to move forward with the best possible decisions at each and every moment - without keeping shiny object's moving towards invisible notions of something else in time. Opposed - to what a sound in time really is at the moment it happens, for example....when it happens in front of your microphones-in your room.

[moose]

Its funny, but it seems like the people who make the fewest requests beforehand and even during the process are the ones who could really care less about what gear I pick or what I do.

What usually dominates the conversations with those folks are songs & groove... the 'form' and feel they want the record to have.

They just want to play their instruments & for me to not impede the process... however they're also the first ones to stop and speak up if something isn't hitting right. Otherwise they rarely say anything about sounds.

Usually its the people who I get in-depth with in pre-pro and they ask a million questions about gear... they tend to be the ones who I can use Jedi mind-tricks on if things aren't hitting the sweet spot.

Is that what you were getting at?

I've sorta grown into this thing of only working with artists who I dig and not working on music I don't want to work on. I'd like to think that the artists realize I have their best interest in mind... otherwise we wouldn't be working together, period.

[Sandyrb]

I've sorta grown into this thing of only working with artists who I dig and not working on music I don't want to work on.

You and me both my friend, you and me both. :)

Cheers,

[ears2thesky]

I've sorta grown into this thing of only working with artists who I dig and not working on music I don't want to work on. I'd like to think that the artists realize I have their best interest in mind... otherwise we wouldn't be working together, period.

I won't bring anyone who's stuff I don't dig into my project studio. The worst thing in the world is being married to shitty music for a month. It really sucks when you can't get that horrible material out of your head! Especially when you could have tracked the whole thing better yourself.
It's funny that the product sounds better when I'm into it.
bthead

[Dylansdad]

You and me both my friend, you and me both. :)

Cheers,

The most liberating word in Pro Audio is "NO" ! My five year old taught me this lesson

To the OP never, ever buy a mic for a single use ! Think Global I would rather walk into a situation where a guy is using say a single Bock 151 as overheads because thats what he has than the a place where they always use SM81s because thats what they always use!
What am I sayin Invest in mics take your time think about it don't just buy something that works for one thing! Untill you build your mic locker learn everything you can do with what you have (I know a guy who used 57 as overheads and to this day his stuff sounds good because he new how to use them)!

[Baz]

To the OP never, ever buy a mic for a single use !


I know this is an old topic but I thought I'd chime in as this statement really resonates with me. I am, and probably always will be, a 'swiss army knife' type guy when it comes to gear. Not just b/c it's easier on the wallet, but b/c it helps me make decisions quicker, too. We're down to 3 pairs of SDC's where 2 get a lot of use on OHs,one seems to cut it more on piano, and they all work fine on acoustic instruments. But if I had to have just one pair to cover more ground, one of these pairs would do the trick.

Also one of the reasons I love my old 87i. While very fashionable to dislike these days, I find that for me personally, it's rarely ever a poor choice, so again, quick decisions, lots of mileage.

[pauly]

[QUOTE=Dylansdad;1900]

To the OP never, ever buy a mic for a single use !

i buy shit all the time that works really well for 1 or 2 things. and that is totally a personal taste thing. don't be afraid to buy something for one purpose if it sounds better to you than anything else.

[albert]

[QUOTE=Dylansdad;1900]

To the OP never, ever buy a mic for a single use !

i buy shit all the time that works really well for 1 or 2 things. and that is totally a personal taste thing. don't be afraid to buy something for one purpose if it sounds better to you than anything else.
I agree. Also, one should use their ears.

Every option the OP listed is exceptional anyway!

:)