Not blowing up a nice mic in the kick

[Halfway Competent]

About a year ago, I used my Audio Technica 4047 on kick drum, mostly as an experiment... The mic has a bit of a bump in the lows that I figured would sound nice on kick.

It actually sounded incredible. I loved it for about 5 hits of the drum... And then the diaphragm got stuck to the backplate and the mic never sounded the same again (until I sent it to AT for a new capsule, anyway).

Is there a way to get that lovely tonality without destroying the mic? Lately I use an EV Raven on kick, which has nowhere near the clarity nor thud. It works OK, but the 4047 kicked arse. What if I put a foam filter around it to protect it from air blasts? Pop filter?

[Gailid]

What kind of placement are you doing?

[Halfway Competent]

The 4047 was a ways in; about halfway into the drum from the hole, I'd say, turned a bit to the side. The Raven sits just in the hole (thinner bass on that mic, so I pull it out a bit to get more woof).

[Sandyrb]

Is there a way to get that lovely tonality without destroying the mic?

I've often used a FET47 on kick because that gives a really nice prog rock tone and - so far - I haven't destroyed one. I usually have it outside the hole though, pointing in. Very often there's another mic actually in the hole, which being a D6, MD421, what have you.

The 47s we have at the studio are the Gene Lawson variety but I can't comment as to whether this makes them particularly tough or not. I've heard that these new Alloy 2213 capsules (ie; Telefunken) are supposed to be hard to damage but ya gotta wonder why anyone would want an indestructible LDC in the first place. :)

Cheers,

[Halfway Competent]

Are you talkin' about the new 251 Titanium? Indestructible is good, particularly around interns, or those only halfway competent. ;)

What I liked about the sound of the 4047 vs. Raven was its ability to really capture the sound of the shell when it was in the drum, vs just the click/thud. Like unveiling the sound, as it were.

So it sounds like the key here is to just keep the mic outside of the drum?

[iCombs]

Have you considered putting a windscreen on it? I'm talking like the ugly foam variety...kick drums create quite a blast of air and mitigating that might help keep your capsules from dying.

[Sandyrb]

Are you talkin' about the new 251 Titanium?

The ELA M 251T? Yeah that's the puppy. I wonder what it sounds like? Oh wait; it's Telefunken... probably good. :)

Indestructible is good, particularly around interns

This is another very fine point. :)

So it sounds like the key here is to just keep the mic outside of the drum?

Well I guess it's one way of doing it. :) The reason I started experimenting with an LDC outside the drum "back in the day" was because I wanted this bigger sound. 'Course the standard then was those AKG D-12s and I never really liked the results from them although it was "the sound" of a kick to most people. Then I read somewhere that someone (might even have been Mr Johns) had used a FET 47 and a little light went on.

Have you considered putting a windscreen on it? I'm talking like the ugly foam variety...kick drums create quite a blast of air and mitigating that might help keep your capsules from dying.

I can confirm that this method does cut down a lot of the plosive effect and doesn't even sound bad. Thanks iCombs. :)

On another note I've tried a Royer 121 close to BUT not in front of the hole (for fear of destruction; bits of ribbon sailing away like Dorothy's house) and that's worked out pretty well. There was this one Pearl kick that had two holes and I sat the 121 right between them. That got a really nice punchy tone although I admit it was mixed with an MD421.

Cheers,

[Fletcher]

It actually sounded incredible. I loved it for about 5 hits of the drum... And then the diaphragm got stuck to the backplate and the mic never sounded the same again (until I sent it to AT for a new capsule, anyway).

I would suspect that the capsule in that mic was dodgy at birth... it should have taken what a kik drum can give without a struggle... especially with your description of the placement.

Peace.

[Dylansdad]

I would suspect that the capsule in that mic was dodgy at birth... it should have taken what a kik drum can give without a struggle... especially with your description of the placement.

Peace.

Yeah Fletcher is right I on more than one New Glarus Spotted Cow influneced evening tried to blow up a mike using kick drums, When a manufacture says use it abuse it I take them at their word! The 4047 was one of my victims, it will sound far worse than what comes out of any of my three dogs rearends smells before you even come close to destroying it.
The only time I remember destroying a mic element was using a couple of poorly constructed ribbons and I think a octava sdc trying to re amp a kick drum via a turbosound 24 in sub useing a crown reference bridged hooked up to 3 phase it was anything but pretty and to these ears the sdc really didn't sound any worse but hey they said abuse it.

[burnthair donethat]

so what guide lines can you give someone who wants to try using more expensive mics on potentially destrucive sources?

i've been itching to try out my 4011s on a snare drum but always weighed against it because i'd probably be out of a job if i fucked it up. the farthest i've gone is putting it on a snare with the -20 pad on some soft, brushed snare. it says on the manual that it can withstand very hi SPLs. i've also put a U87 near(5ft) the kick with a pop screen and slanted but didn't quite work like i planned.

how can i be totally safe doing stuff like this?

[Dylansdad]

Long ago I was told " never put a microphone where you wouldn't put your ear!" Well I threw that one out almost as long ago. Drums are not your mics enemy drumers are. I haven't seen a mic damaged by the SPL of a drum but seen tons ( includeing my Sony c36 side address sdc) that have been damaged by drummers. I often said the idea of the drum machine was to save some ones mics.
As far as mic safety look at the mics maximum SPL this going to give you an idea at what SPL is going to overload and not be usefull anyway, now go get a cheap SPL meter so you
Can get an idea what that point is going to be !
Now as far as how close you want to put that DPA, that's a case by case, how much can I trust this drummer question!
You can always start with a sacrifical 57 if it is none the worse for ware you might try something of more value! Fact is I will always admit that part of what makes a great drum mic is it's durability, everytime I think of Albini useing his once custom Josephsons I Say a little prayer to the audio gods "help ! Please ! Thank you!"

[Mixwell]

so what guide lines can you give someone who wants to try using more expensive mics on potentially destrucive sources?

i've been itching to try out my 4011s on a snare drum but always weighed against it because i'd probably be out of a job if i fucked it up. the farthest i've gone is putting it on a snare with the -20 pad on some soft, brushed snare. it says on the manual that it can withstand very hi SPLs. i've also put a U87 near(5ft) the kick with a pop screen and slanted but didn't quite work like i planned.

how can i be totally safe doing stuff like this?

There are no rules in recording,

But there are plenty of rules in physics.

[burnthair donethat]

wasn't necessarily looking for rules per se. just guidelines from people who've had more experience than i.

[Mixwell]

so what guide lines can you give someone who wants to try using more expensive mics on potentially destrucive sources?

i've been itching to try out my 4011s on a snare drum but always weighed against it because i'd probably be out of a job if i fucked it up. the farthest i've gone is putting it on a snare with the -20 pad on some soft, brushed snare. it says on the manual that it can withstand very hi SPLs. i've also put a U87 near(5ft) the kick with a pop screen and slanted but didn't quite work like i planned.

how can i be totally safe doing stuff like this?

You just use it "cautiously" - but with intent, that has purpose, and not just because its "expensive". Regardless of cost, these are tools that offer up a means to communication in their own specific way. They are audio instruments for musical instruments, and knowing which audio instrument to use with which musical instrument [a widely varying application and source] - and even more importantly WHERE and WHY is a skill worth pursuing.

Perhaps, You've already demonstrated problem solving caution, when you selected a fast and sensitive condenser like the 4011 on the snare with a light, brushed part [and a drummer who respects audio instruments] being that he offered a certain "dynamic" that would possibly work with this audio instrument. Would a 57 have worked towards the goal of this work? Would you even use the 4011 for an acid tripping blind and deaf drummer who has eighty cymbals?

[Zachg]

Fact is I will always admit that part of what makes a great drum mic is it's durability, everytime I think of Albini useing his once custom Josephsons I Say a little prayer to the audio gods "help ! Please ! Thank you!"

If those are the Josephsons I'm thinking of, (the e22S) those things sure can take a beating. One of the e22s at work has a dent in the back of it from a direct hit from a angry drumstick. Still sounds like brand new. Great mics, especially when paired with NPNG pre's... (:DSpoiled and lovin' it!!:D)

Cheers,
Zach

[Dylansdad]

If those are the Josephsons I'm thinking of, (the e22S) those things sure can take a beating. One of the e22s at work has a dent in the back of it from a direct hit from a angry drumstick. Still sounds like brand new. Great mics, especially when paired with NPNG pre's... (:DSpoiled and lovin' it!!:D)

Cheers,
Zach

yeah thats the one I was thinking of but as I remember He had Josephson building them BEFORE they were production models I shutter think of the drummers I have worked with! Funny thing is I think one of my beat up old 421s with the most dents is the best sounding!

[Adam The Truck Driver]

I am in the process of acquiring a UM70S for which one
of my intended applications is bass drum, and I'm hoping
it'll be suitible for anything a good U47fet would be used
on with simular results.(?)

[moose]

Hmmmm... a long time ago I also blew up an AT4047 with a kick drum, I think it might've even been a prototype... it was that long ago. When I got it my guys at AT said to use & abuse the thing, said it was rated up to 150dB or so without the pad.

One of the first torture tests was a kick drum... used Fet47's there many time so why not? Poor thing sounded amazing for about half a second before the diaphragm got nailed to the backplate and it went silent.

Still one of my favorite kick drum samples! Guess it was worth it...

Anyway... the kids back at the lab told me that the 150dB rating was at 1kHz... they never thought about sticking it on a drum or anything that would move a lot of low frequency air. Since then I haven't put a condenser inside a kick drum... leave 'em on the outside head. 414 in figure 8 is pretty killer...

[Halfway Competent]

Hmmmm... a long time ago I also blew up an AT4047 with a kick drum, I think it might've even been a prototype... it was that long ago. When I got it my guys at AT said to use & abuse the thing, said it was rated up to 150dB or so without the pad.

One of the first torture tests was a kick drum... used Fet47's there many time so why not? Poor thing sounded amazing for about half a second before the diaphragm got nailed to the backplate and it went silent.

Still one of my favorite kick drum samples! Guess it was worth it...

Anyway... the kids back at the lab told me that the 150dB rating was at 1kHz... they never thought about sticking it on a drum or anything that would move a lot of low frequency air. Since then I haven't put a condenser inside a kick drum... leave 'em on the outside head. 414 in figure 8 is pretty killer...

Do you think that the foam pop filter over the mic would help? Think it's air blasts or actual sound energy that's blowing the capsule?

[moose]

Do you think that the foam pop filter over the mic would help? Think it's air blasts or actual sound energy that's blowing the capsule?

I would imagine that its the air which IS actually "energy" that does the damage. Physical motion is energy... sound waves are energy... At some point they'd have things in common even though they aren't actually the same. But the principle is the same... I'm sure some propllerhead could explain it better then my ramblings.

Think of it this way... 1kHz at 120dB doesn't displace the same amount of energy as 10Hz. Its not nearly the same amount of air being moved. Like a 4x12 guitar cab vs. a 1x10 combo... they'll both get to the same "loudness" if measured with an SPL meter but one is pushing A LOT more air around.

Honestly I'm trying to remember the specifics of when I blew up my 4047... I can't even remember if it was a production model or the prototype. I do remember the guys there asking what the hell I did to the thing...

The 4047 I got to replace it was flawless for as long as I owned it, and I've never managed to blow up another AT mic on anything. Though I have had M88's fail on bass drums...

[iCombs]

I just did a session with a 4047 on kick out about 3 inches from the reso head of a kick whose drummer has a pretty strong foot...lasted for 2 days of tracking while I was there.

I'm thinking that plosives are what's doing that kind of damage. The pure SPL's in front of a kick drum aren't THAT insane, and they really aren't that insane IN a kick drum, either...however, the GUST that comes out of a well hit kick...that will do some damage. I know for a fact that Terry Manning uses FET 47's INSIDE the kick...AFTER he's found a spot where the breeze isn't.

[ears2thesky]

I use pop screens mounted to mics at the hole all the time.

[Halfway Competent]

I just did a session with a 4047 on kick out about 3 inches from the reso head of a kick whose drummer has a pretty strong foot...lasted for 2 days of tracking while I was there.

I'm thinking that plosives are what's doing that kind of damage. The pure SPL's in front of a kick drum aren't THAT insane, and they really aren't that insane IN a kick drum, either...however, the GUST that comes out of a well hit kick...that will do some damage. I know for a fact that Terry Manning uses FET 47's INSIDE the kick...AFTER he's found a spot where the breeze isn't.

I've gotten some thunderous kick sound with the 4047 sitting just in front of the reso head, away from the hole... But the drummer wanted more of the shell and beater sound, hence why I put the mic inside (and whereupon it blew up after about a couple of hits).

How does he find out where the breeze isn't? Stick his hand in the hole while the drummer beats on the thing? Foam wind screen sounds like it's something worth trying.

[iCombs]

I've gotten some thunderous kick sound with the 4047 sitting just in front of the reso head, away from the hole... But the drummer wanted more of the shell and beater sound, hence why I put the mic inside (and whereupon it blew up after about a couple of hits).

Solid reasoning...especially if you want to stick with a 1 mic setup on the kick (which isn't a bad thing by any stretch).

How does he find out where the breeze isn't? Stick his hand in the hole while the drummer beats on the thing?

That's what I'd do...and I'd guess that's at least part of the process. I'm sure there's a bit of experience there at THIS point with a guy like TM, but my guess also would be that it would be somewhere away from the hole on the inside...like kinda across the drum from where the hole is.

Foam wind screen sounds like it's something worth trying.

I had no qualms about putting one of my 414EB's about 2 inches from the reso head of a BIG ASS Ludwig kick a couple weeks ago...the wind screen is cheap insurance.

[moose]

How does he find out where the breeze isn't? Stick his hand in the hole while the drummer beats on the thing? Foam wind screen sounds like it's something worth trying.

Grab 'yer trusty lighter, pop the flame and stick it in front of the drum while the drummer plays. Watch the flame... the spot where it moves the least is safest and the spot where it blows out is not.

[iCombs]

nice tip!

[moose]

nice tip!

I've got a million of 'em.

The lighter trick also works with bass amps and many other things...