Mixing With a Sub / Best config?

[Gailid]

Another Configuration question, but first, a preference question.

What are the opinions on mixing with a Sub. At first I felt like it would be a bad thing, but the more mix with mine, the more I feel like its a good thing.


Config question:
Using ProTools LE 7.3 w/ 002, There's not a easy way to have a my Monitor levels and Sub levels move together (other than the Master fader, which I really don't like to use). Currently the way I'm Solving this is running the Monitor out of 002 to my powered Monitors, and the Main out (which doesn't have a level knob/pot) to my sub. as long as I keep the Monitor level knob the same place then I'm good.

I really don't like this Config, but I really dont want to buy something like the Big knob (http://www.mackie.com/products/bigknob/) to solve it.

[Dan]

Unless you're running a surround system, you shouldn't be feeding your sub off a discrete output. Your stereo outputs should be feeding some sort of crossover or bass management system which then feeds your sub and your mains. This processor is often built into the sub, so in a "2.1" system, you'd run your L/R signals to the sub, then out of the sub into the tops.

-Dan.

[pauly]

adding a sub can be tricky, the sub can cause phase issues, a few companies like focal offer a sub with a nob to adjust phase, some guys will run a pair of subs, also having a sub with a bypass is a nice thing to have, turning the sub off after dialing in the the low end and checking here and there will give you a better, longer day with less fatigue. your main outs should feed the sub then your monitors plug into the sub, buying a sub made for your mains are in most cases the best option.

[Halfway Competent]

A good sub, properly configured, should not be fatiguing. The subwoofer's job is to pick up the bass frequencies the monitors can't reproduce; I get the feeling a lot of people think of booming cars or rumbly home theaters when they hear the word "subwoofer". A good sub, properly positioned and set up, should not call any attention to itself. Nobody should walk into the studio and say, "Hey, sweet subwoofer." If they do, they've realized immediately that you're using one, and it's thus too loud (or crossed over wrong, etc).

I once mixed a song in a facility with a couple of old JBL passive 6.5" two-way monitors. When I was done, I took the mix home and hooked it up to my home stereo with a properly-set-up sub. The bass was so heavy it about launched me out of the room. The little JBLs had no response in the low bass, and so I had no idea what was going on down there. Hook up the sub... Woah. So I brought my sub into the studio and remixed the song. Much better the next go-round.

But that's just my opinion; I could be wrong.

As for your configuration question: Most powered studio subs have stereo inputs and pass-thrus on them. Run the monitor outputs to the sub, then the pass-thru to your main speakers. If you want to be able to bypass the sub, I would not use high-pass outputs, if it is so equipped.

Ideally, you should have no more booming of bass from a sub/sat system than from large, main monitors.

[albert]

The sub is only good if set up properly.

I always set mine up by ear, I tend to follow the manufacturer's recommended crossover (if there is one), and then adjust the balance of woofer/tweeter to subwoofer by ear. Sometimes the minor tweaking continues for a month or two after initial setup.

Listening to a lot of records one loves and knows well will help get the adjustments right.

My mixes improved a long time ago when I decided to always mix with a sub, it helps very very much to know what harmonic content is all the way down there.


Note, I would rather mix with no sub, than a poorly setup one.

This is a topic that I could go on about for a long time, I'll save it.


I have a question for you all, anyone here ever owned a stereo-sub setup? Any thoughts? I have seen mastering engineers who have them, always intrigued when I see it.

[Sandyrb]

Just to add some anecdotal information to this thread... we had a young lad come to the studio the other day with some electronica tracks that he'd done. He wasn't recording with us, he just wanted us to sign him up and make him a star. I guess he didn't realize that recording studio and record label aren't necessarily the same thing, but I digress...

Well, I'll be kind and NOT comment about the musical quality of his material but there was one kinda R'n'B / hip-hop tune that he'd done and as we played it back he commented "Oh, it sounds better with a sub".

So, hang on a minute... you're listening to twenty grand's worth of PMC with piston drivers powered by Bryston SST monoblocks in an acoustically-tuned environment which is probably the best sounding room in the whole province and your opinion is that your track sounds better with a sub?

Can anyone say "YOUR SUB IS TURNED UP WAY TOO LOUD"!?!?!? ;)

And therein lies a lesson for us all. :)

Cheers,

[Zachg]

and as we played it back he commented "Oh, it sounds better with a sub".

So, hang on a minute... you're listening to twenty grand's worth of PMC with piston drivers powered by Bryston SST monoblocks in an acoustically-tuned environment which is probably the best sounding room in the whole province and your opinion is that your track sounds better with a sub?

Can anyone say "YOUR SUB IS TURNED UP WAY TOO LOUD"!?!?!? ;)


I remember that...



I've found that even with the really small monitors, once you learn them, you can get away without sub, but for some genres it probably helps as long as the sub is set right. Like, if I had a sub in my mini setup, I would have a real hard time setting up the subwoofer for an even amount of subs, because the sound is so bad, then the sub would do more harm then good (see quote). As advice to those looking at getting a subwoofer, get one that bypass able (or use a big knob/presonus thing). Then you can use it to check what going on down there, while still being able to listen to the mix on just the smaller speakers. I'm getting to the point where I know how my monitors sound, so if a bring a mix I do onto the PMCs, I know that the mix should sound sort of similar.

Hope this helps,
Zach

[Dylansdad]

Yep subs are so misunderstood, most think its to add more SPL not frequency extension.
As to the point of stereo subs, the concept is that while bass may well be omni-directional. The area above the crossover point where both the sub and the main cabinets operate is not and both need to acoustically "sum" with minimal phase issues. Easy way to get summation is keep the drivers close to each others.
The other theory is bass aint omni!
Now Sandy your just spoiled by those big PMC's ! But you know the whole idea that one can track and mix with most little nearfields is a joke. Yes I thought I could then I added Tannoy SRM12Bs and then I switched to Quested H208s they may not put out a lot below 30 but I hear it and see it on an fft!