Resonant Jazz Kick Drum Vs Double Bass

[phrenology]

So I tried to convince the drummer on the session yesterday to deaden his jazz kit's smallish kick drum. He demured, saying he liked it "live"...granted, this one of the best tuned kicks i've recorded, but it is very resonant. The double bass on the session is a FULL SIZE BASS (most of you have probably only even seen 3/4 size basses). Lots and Lots of important low mid information, amazingly rich sound.

miked the kick with an AK-47 straight into distressor and the bass with a soundelux U95s--> NPNG--> chandler germ comp. Both, on their own sound quite nice. the problem is they fight for frequency space big time, and by the time i got it sounding non-muddy the kick doesn't kick anymore. Eqing with EQ2NV for both. I don't know how to attach audio files, or i'd do it...

Is there some mix solution to this kind of problem, or do you just have to convince the drummer to put some deadening material in a (probably bigger) kick in this kind of situation?

[Aski]

This is interesting, I'd love to hear them...

I would say, somethings gotta give. Perhaps you could add some really low stuff onto the kick drum to give a subharmonic punch (not really standard on a jazz recording... but hey...)

Or maybe in you get them mixed just right, and the players are tight, they can live together as is...

But I'd really have to hear them to give an opinion...

[seaneldon]

Is the "overly resonant" thing a function of the compressor? Can you tame it with the compressor?

I'd use a Transient Designer to attenuate the sustain of the drum. I hear there's a couple good free plugins that do a similar thing, though not with the ease of two knobs. SPL makes a Transient Designer plugin that sounds almost exactly like the hardware. When I compared to our hardware, the "knob" positions were a LITTLE different from plug-to-box but I was able to get pretty much the same thing going on.

I wouldn't dick with the guy's drum. Stuffing/deadening the drum will make it play differently, and unless the drummer is an absolute doll he'll probably be in a pissy mood that you don't think "his sound" is working.

Maybe you can dial this in with EQ...perhaps (as an EXAMPLE...I haven't heard the tracks) giving the double bass all of the 20-80Hz real estate and the kick drum all of the 90-160Hz real estate.

Could be bad bleed, too...

[Bob Stark]

In the future... sounds like too much processing on the way in. When I saw that a distressor (I like 'em BTW) was in your chain, I cringed a little bit for this application. Nine time out of ten, when recording a jazz project, I have a microphone and a preamp and a converter (or tape). That's all you need.

In tandem with acoustic bass, the bass drum should just punch along. There will be ocassional clashes on the low end because the bass drum is tuned to a note. It's unavoidable. Just check any of those Peter Erskine, Marc Johnson albums or anything where Joey Baron plays on a Bill Frisell album with an acoustic bassist. I think we all agree that these recording sound just fine!

As for resolving your issue, Sean has a great idea with Transient Designer.

Good Luck!

[Sweet.]

I haven't posted much but, as a drummer I felt I'd chime in, try using a small towel or even a wash cloth inside the kick, on the front head and adjust how much of it is touching the head to taste, you're not obviously not trying to kill all the sustain but your obviously want a little control of it, this wont change the sound drastically like muffling the batter head does but it will help you control some of that wooly sustain from the front head. If that isnt enough, try muffling the batter, who knows that might work better..
good luck!

[phrenology]

Here's what i'm working with...i THINK i've got something i like. here's my first shot at the mix, where the bass is fuller but i loose the kick:

http://files.me.com/owenmuir/vq975d.mp3

and here's the mix i did today, different gear, tried controlling the transient on the kick with a germ comp and eqed with an API 5500, bass mic same chain, bass DI eq with GR EQ2NV and logic comp.

http://files.me.com/owenmuir/c5hr0d.mp3

i took the sean eldon approach, sort of, giving the kick drum the low mids (boost 9db @ 240hz) and scooping out a bit of 240hz on the bass. slow attack and release on the germ comp on the kick, silicon hard curve, ratio 11, shaving off 5 db, mix 100% wet.

if any of you are reading tonight and feel like chiming in with helpful hints or commentary, i'd love it!

(for those interested, the bassist and composer is Mario Pavone, who usually records on playscape records).
--Owen Muir

[phrenology]

Just a note to bob stark: there was no preamp on the kick on the way in--that's why i use the distressor, mostly for gain. the AK 47 is THAT hot, no preamp required. i may have compressed too much anyway however...

[Aski]

I quite like the second mix. The kick gets a little buried in there, but structurally I think that the upright bass is more important to the song anyways. Sounds great to me...

[phrenology]

personal discovery: it's WAY harder to mix jazzy "accent" drums than it is to mix simple kicking grooves for me. there is so much more taste that goes into the balance! the instructions i was given, cause the client could not be present (which will make for some serious back and forth: "just make sure all the instruments are balanced"....gee, specific. ugh!

[seaneldon]

The second balance is a lot better and sounds quite good for what it is, regardless of what gear you're using. I wasn't in the room but I get the impression that the second mix is closer to the way the room heard it.

Is this the session you rolled without headphones? It's amazing how much better musicians will balance themselves when they're not listening to a monitor mix. Don't overdo it. It was probably pretty close to done when they played it...