View Full Version : vocal volume automation
Hey there fellow mic movers! I have been delving into automating vocals lately and I was just wondering if you guys have any tips and tricks to help me along the way. I know not everyone shares the same opinions on it, But I would like any advise either way. I have had some pretty cool results so far and think that it could add alot to my production, especially seen as how I can't seem to make anything but really low doses of compression sound good. I like the idea of being able to have more control with less compression. Any sort of snapshots would be nice. I know Benny had some up on GS but they aren't up there anymore. I'm just trying to get a good starting point to use as a reference while experimenting, I always trust my ears over method but like to have a rough idea of what I'm doing before I just go moving shit around and listening. Thanks in advance for any comments.
seaneldon
22 Dec 2009, 16:19
HALT.
The "reference" is the track you get. Not a picture of someone else's tracks.
You move the fader to put the vocal at the right volume for a given passage/line/word/whatever the hell. Automation makes it possible to only do it once, or program it in.
What's the question, exactly?
the reason I asked for screen shot reference was to get an idea of the amount of automation used, levels that kind of stuff. I mean I can take a lesson from that without trying to imitate it. The question on a whole was "are there any tricks or things to avoid when doing it"? I don't have the luxury of working in audio as my day job yet so I am sitting here thinking about it, and trying to get any info I can before I go home and continue to work it out myself. If it is a stupid question, I apologize, I guess I will just have to go home and do it.
jdubdrums
22 Dec 2009, 18:08
(some words that I've found helpful)
Do WHATEVER it takes to get the sounds you hear in your head...
Forget what the screen looks like....
If it sounds right, it IS right...
No one can teach you TASTE...
And knowing is half the battle... (courtesy of G.I. Joe)
Mixwell
22 Dec 2009, 18:16
the reason I asked for screen shot reference was to get an idea of the amount of automation used, levels that kind of stuff. I mean I can take a lesson from that without trying to imitate it. The question on a whole was "are there any tricks or things to avoid when doing it"? I don't have the luxury of working in audio as my day job yet so I am sitting here thinking about it, and trying to get any info I can before I go home and continue to work it out myself. If it is a stupid question, I apologize, I guess I will just have to go home and do it.
Firstly; I think the saying of "there are no rules", definitely applies to this answer. Bottom line, this kind of tool is simply a means to an end. With the purpose of the job, comes the engineer and his tool set to solve them. It is all relative to what the application warrants.
My answer to your question is that;
A) There are only right and wrong as you define it, and not really so much "trickery" to the use of this weapon.
B) You must only Serve the Music, and it will tell you what is required of you. Volume Automation, as well as the myriad of DAW automation features are extremely powerful tools that are only limited your imagination, and of course the physics that surround us.
the reason I asked for screen shot reference was to get an idea of the amount of automation used, levels that kind of stuff. I mean I can take a lesson from that without trying to imitate it. The question on a whole was "are there any tricks or things to avoid when doing it"? I don't have the luxury of working in audio as my day job yet so I am sitting here thinking about it, and trying to get any info I can before I go home and continue to work it out myself. If it is a stupid question, I apologize, I guess I will just have to go home and do it.
I agree with everybody else.
That said, my eyes were opened a bit on a couple of occasions: the first was seeing a PT demo back in rekordin' skool w/ a Norah Jones song that had tons of automation on the vocals, particularly to bring up the tail ends of phrases. The 2nd was seeing that Rock Star movie w/ Mark Wahlberg - there's a bit where they show him overdubbing vocals and you can see the console automation jumping around all over the place. It's been so long since I've seen that movie, I have no idea if what I saw onscreen actually reflects reality, but they both helped me realize that tons of automation is just fine. Prior to that, my concept of automation was a couple dB here, a couple dB there, nothing too drastic.
Do whatever it takes to get what you hear in your head.
-Dan.
Thanks Dan, that was along the line of what I meant, Thanks everyone else too. Either way I am now going home to do what sounds right, and I would never let the screen tell me what is going on, I think I came across as looking for some magic formula that would show me how to do it but I was mmore talking about what Dan touched on. Just wondering if there were any common do's or dont's that were a good beginning of understanding it. Either way thanks. If anything you made me realize that there aren't really any. I will just have to go home and play with it.
Sandyrb
22 Dec 2009, 19:49
If I might just add another ten cents to all these fab words of widsom...
If you're going for intelligibility, work at low volume. Get the vocal levels right phrase-by-phrase or word-by-word with your speakers down quite low. This will minimize the perceptive effects of listening loud and - hopefully - ensure a more consistent vocal level which works for the listener's POV.
Then crank it to make sure it's rockin' yer pants at extinction level too. ;)
Hope this helps. :)
Cheers,
jonathan jetter
26 Dec 2009, 03:14
this kind of thing is so dependent on the singer and the song....
i've had sessions where the right answer was 20db of gain reduction through an MC77.
had sessions where the right answer was a bit of compression and a bit of automation.
had sessions where the automation lines came out looking like jackson pollock paintings......sometimes with tons of compression, sometimes without.
once in a blue moon i run into sessions where the dynamics are very close to right and very little level control is required. these sessions are almost never pop or rock sessions but usually jazz, bluegrass, blues, solo acoustic singer/songwriter, etc etc.
also- if you have a faderport or a control surface (or a console). once you've had some time to get to know the vocal performance.....turn off your screen and just get to work without the eyes. helps soooooo much sometimes.
also not to be dogmatic...because again...context is everything. but i usually compress my vocals a bit harder than i think most people do (not uncommon for me to want to see the MC77 hit -10 or more). part of my getting automation to work right is also having the right amount of compression going on. things can get to a point where the awkwardness of automating every note of an uncompressed performance from a dynamic singer is gonna do more harm than good.
hope this is helpful.
jon
As far as general vocal automation tips, I have two that have worked well for me. The first is writing the automation vs drawing it. I find that song and situation depending, actually performing the automation as opposed to drawing it in can give it far more character. Another thing I like to do is use slight automation for the choruses. I will bump up the chorus by about half a db each time to give it kind of a swell or build. You don't outright hear it as much as feel it, and it has worked for me.
Weiss-Sound
31 Dec 2009, 15:27
The first thing is to never draw by sight. This is more or less what compressors do (don't jump down my throat on that comment) - and why they are limited. Automation is selective - you can choose when and where the volume moves. Vocals tend to be very dynamic, so it's not uncommon to have 12db differences in automation.
For reduction I know that if I hear something too loudly there is an effect. It's hard to describe, but it's like the vocal sound looses some of its tone and you just hear the movement of the speaker - it becomes a physical sound, not a tonal one. That's a give away to reduce the volume. This requires having established a volume to monitor the vocals at. I find this exposes itself both in solo vocals and in full mix.
For gaining, clarity is the key. If something isn't clear, chances are there's a vowel or a consonant that needs a boost. Sometimes the end of words and phrases trail out, even though there's a lot of tone there. Also, singers will sometimes do fluke things that either sound really cool or terrible, and those usually enjoy some automation to either come to light or hide away. Lip smacking being a negative example, little quivers and bird-song trills being positive examples.
ROCKER STUDIOS
31 Mar 2010, 22:00
I can say that after working with Russ Terrana (Chief engineer for Motown) who Rides the faders like he's playing an instrument. I now get better mixes with lots of automation. Its nice to put the C/24 in record and Ride the faders
with MY EARS :cool:
ears2thesky
01 Apr 2010, 14:43
Manual vocal rides--how old school. Who needs it when you've got this?
http://www.waves.com/content.aspx?id=9945
Manual vocal rides--how old school. Who needs it when you've got this?
http://www.waves.com/content.aspx?id=9945
tisk tisk, now where's the fun in that?
ROCKER STUDIOS
01 Apr 2010, 17:45
Manual vocal rides--how old school. Who needs it when you've got this?
http://www.waves.com/content.aspx?id=9945
Have not used that plug but i assume it knocks down the high levels and brings up the low levels BUT How dose it know how to make it fit in the mix?? Like what if in 1 part I did not want the High levels knocked down is it Automated ???
Sandyrb
01 Apr 2010, 20:30
Who needs it when you've got this? http://www.waves.com/content.aspx?id=9945
Holy cow spoil all the enjoyment why don't they? If I wanted the machinery to ride the vocals I'd convince the boss to buy a Sta-Level! That's a MUCH better idea. :)
That thing's no more than the AVO circuit from an old DJ mixer!
Cheers,
Mixwell
02 Apr 2010, 10:54
Manual vocal rides--how old school. Who needs it when you've got this?
http://www.waves.com/content.aspx?id=9945
Dude Seriously, Did you know that I can automate a 128th note Square/Triangle/Sine Wave in Pro Tools? Tremolo Heaven, Or Head spinning Exorcisms. You choose. Really, I can't wait for the "wipe my ass" plug in to come out. I need to recall the square footage of paper I used last time.
Dude Seriously, Did you know that I can automate a 128th note Square/Triangle/Sine Wave in Pro Tools? Tremolo Heaven, Or Head spinning Exorcisms. You choose. Really, I can't wait for the "wipe my ass" plug in to come out. I need to recall the square footage of paper I used last time.
I read that they are coming out with a plug-in to tell when it sounds good so we need not bother listening anymore. And a braille monitor for blind artists, you know, so they can "see" Awesome.. We can really focus on what's important: staring at a monitor.. :finger:
Tom Dowd... is rolling over in his grave.....
But I digress...
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