Be schooled or to old schooled? [Archive]

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cookseyeng

12 Dec 2009, 05:22

Tomasz

12 Dec 2009, 08:57

what other skills do you already possess in audio production?

I'm very curious to hear what others have to say about this matter.. I recently had similar choices on my plate..... However, previously I've already been doing voice overs, live sound, recording lots of metal, stoner/doom, and punk/grind.. All at my "studio". Landing even an internship at some local PROPPER studios has proved very elusive as of yet... and I make great coffee and can broom with the best of 'em, can tune and intonate guitars, and can tune drums... All very well I might add..
I will say this...32K for a year of schooling..... X 4 years... =get some gear and practice... or pay for time at a respected studio and track or mix (practicing on pro gear) and get to know the engineer... He/She will probably teach you the real stuff...

Sandyrb

12 Dec 2009, 12:42

Here are my thoughts on this matter ... and they are many, so I'll try to precis them somewhat. I should also indemnify myself by saying that it's possible that there are good recording schools and if there are then I haven't met one YET. So if I'm offending anyone... sorry; I am speaking purely from personal experience.

First of all, don't waste $100K+ at a so-called recording school. Don't even throw $20K at it.

"Why not?", I hear you ask. Most recording schools are basically going to sit you in front of and teach you to slice 'n' dice lumps of audio. I had one young lad who spent a rude bunch of money at the supposedly best recording school in this country (name of institution witheld) and when he came back he couldn't even mic up a frikkin' drum kit. In fact, he didn't know sh*t from sugar about recording! Now he's got some dead-end job, a huge student loan debt and his recording dreams are in the gutter... I don't want to see that happen to ANYONE else.

Back in the old country I used to do a bit of producer management. Very small time, like, but kinda interesting. So I used to get about fifty letters a year from young lads who'd been through recording school and wanted to be the next Mutt Lange or something. Their paperwork was replete with expressions of ability with this or that software, but did any bother to send me a CD and say "this is what I can do"? Very rarely! So I really had nothing whatsoever to demonstrate their competence to me. Anyway I'm kinda digressing... the point being, the very few CDs that I did get weren't that great but one example is outstanding because these guys had graduated from recording school and formed their own little production company. Good for them! I was intrigued to listen to their CD. But when I put it on I was disappointed because, although it was pretty well recorded, it just didn't stand up next to commercial material. So, wait a minute... you guys are setting yourselves up as producers and yet your recording school hasn't even taught you to aim for EXCELLENCE in your work? You're barking up the producer tree and yet you've learned to get by on minimum effort? You want to make chart records (one presumes) but your audition CD is demo-quality stuff? Two words; aim higher. :(

Another example: A young (and very intelligent) lass I know spent horrendous money at ********* Film School doing their audio program. I believe the actual sum was in the forties. She came away as one of only two Pro Tools certified women in Canada. After no more than a few sessions at a local studio she now works in her dad's architect's office and her recording dreams are as dead as Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. She's still paying off the massive student loan.

Another example: I met one of my best friends because after attending ****** Institute he actually had the sense to knock on the door of the studio at which I was working and inquire. Now, he'd spent the least of them all and had actually learned some stuff and he actually had some "stickability" so he hung around and moved to the current studio with me. But again I was worried by his lack of knowledge when it came to recording. The questions he would have to ask me were basic, BASIC stuff... "Which end of the cable goes in the mic?" kinda level. I mean, SERIOUSLY! What the heck did ya spend all that coin on? Anyway, then he got fed up with it and instead aimed toward being a session guitarist... but that's another story for another day.

Anyway, after all that rambling and complaining I am now finally going to make it to my point and again I must stress that this is my own opinion based on my own experience. Most recording schools are CRAP and I don't even know of a half-decent one.

"[I]So what's the alternative?" I hear you ask. Okay... SPEND the money... a good education is totally worth it. But spend it by going to the BEST, most established recording studio you can find, booking their oldest, most experienced engineer and sitting down with him to say "tell me EVERYTHING".

There is absolutely no substitute for experience and feeding from someone else's like that is going to pay massive dividends in future. To give you some idea, most of the guys I really respect in this industry started out on the first rung of the ladder, following the lead engineer and filling up little notebooks with all kinda stuff that the guy did. I didn't have that luxury and that's why it's taken me nearly three bloody decades to get to the point I'm at. 'Sitting at the feet' of a great recording engineer will be absolutely priceless.

Then all you need is the passion to keep your nose to the grindstone when things are sh*tty. To work long hours, often for little reward (sometimes for none at all), to get complained at and about, to clear up cables at the end of the session, to be the lead engineer's bitch until the day you can fly solo. And when you do that you've got to always aim higher, always re-invent yourself, always hone your skills. THEN you've got to have the stickability to keep doing it, doing it, doing it until you think your freakin' ears are going to drop off. BUT! If you're really passionate, really good and really dedicated it's going to be the best job in the world.

One final anecdote: One of our young lasses at the studio has a friend who managed to get into a well-known and decent studio as a "runner". His job is to be the artists' bitch. One band had him dress in womens' clothing and go do their shopping for them. When our lass Jana told him she was an assistant engineer with us but was considering going to recording school, he was GOBSMACKED! He literally begged her to stay where she was, telling her that recording school was the biggest mistake he'd ever made, that he hated his job and that he would give anything to be where she is. And her endeth the lesson for today.

Okay... that was a long post. Sorry to have ranted. But it's early and I'm not fully awake. And, I wouldn't be a very good friend if I saw you driving your car towards a cliff and didn't shout a warning, right? :)

Cheers,

RWB

12 Dec 2009, 13:15

As a graduate of one of the larger schools, I can promise with a fair degree of certainty: without a huge miracle or enough pre-existing skill and experience to make the schooling completely redundant, one will not be considered ready to be a fully-fledged engineer in a real commercial studio immediately after graduation.

Even if you've got a snazzy degree, you'll be 'tea boy' for as long as anyone else, unless you can prove skills that actually are head & shoulders above your peers. Pieces of paper don't count for much when you make the wrong patch and everyone starts yelling.

That said, if you just want to be sure you have the basics nailed down, and you want to know how to use certain pieces of equipment that a school has available, absolutely look into getting some schoolin' from a local place. Personally I'd avoid the big dogs, because when you see where the money goes it's easy to be disillusioned, but there are plenty of options for less than huge money.

cookseyeng

12 Dec 2009, 13:49

I know a few things and I did go buy some gear got a copy of audition 3 and waves mercury and some free vst plugins off the net and know very little about some areas like phasing, miking drum kits, computer trouble shooting, editing, listening to instruments, eqing, just the basic basic stuff. And i did have an internship at a radio station making and editing commercials. But not to sound contradicting but like every noob I think I have an ear for this stuff but I am sure not going to boast as of yet.

But I seriously had been thinking about booking some time with an eng. and just going over stuff while saving up for school (not the 32k a year that was a private college in town) in Ohio, I meet a band that was on a release of Warner Bros. (got recorded in pro studios and he mixed some of the tracks himself) and recommended the school in Chillicothe, that he attended, and said that the people had good heads on their shoulders there, and I actually took the time to visit and some of the engineers have been working in some studios for 20+ years lol and told me don't do this jokingly, as most engineers have told me that I talked to.

And Sandy thank you for all of that. I did go to this broadcasting school and they were saying the same thing or the VP of relations was telling us in his class "the best experience your going get out of this school is in a actual tv studio, post facility, or recording studio from the oldest bad ass dude there." Because I'm thinking on the lines of back in the day, there were no schools for this type of work its, get my coffee and and shut up and learn somthing lol. And I don't think that has changed much either.

Sandyrb

12 Dec 2009, 20:14

Sandy thank you for all of that.

You're welcome. I hope it helped and that I didn't upset too many people - I've had enough death threats for this month. :) I guess I am just dissapointed with the *results* I've seen with recording schools.

But if someone can point me in the direction of a REALLY good one, where they teach the art over the science and the technique over the technology then, heck, I'll start sending students there! :)

Cheers,

Ryan Kelly

13 Dec 2009, 05:19

So here's my story, started interning at a small studio near Seattle when I was 14, went to Full Sail a couple years later and have been working in NY ever since.

I had quite a few people recommend that I spend the money on gear instead and put together my own place and just spend the time learning it. I think this may be perfectly valid for some people but just didn't quite seem like the thing for me.

As you said, you'll be making coffee and cleaning rooms (I did my share of both and much more that I'd rather forget) but what helped me move past that was a solid knowledge of SSL's, signal flow, PT & my music theory. Their are lots of people I met at school who aren't doing anything in audio let alone recording, in fact of my class of 100+ people I know of only 3 others working in studios (I am rather poor at keeping up to date so their's probably some more).

Anyways, I'm printing stems now at 4am and not thinking very clearly but I definitely wouldn't be here doing this if it wasn't for the teachers I had at Full Sail and the program in general. Think really hard about what you want to do and try to spend some time in a commercial studio to see if it's right for you, if it is, go to the schools and talk to lots of grads and find the program that you feel will best equip you for this lovely field.

And start practicing staying up for 24 hours on 3 hours of sleep. It'll come in handy sooner than you know...

cookseyeng

13 Dec 2009, 09:05

And start practicing staying up for 24 hours on 3 hours of sleep. It'll come in handy sooner than you know...
Good thing I work 3rds, OHHHH Sandy, this school brings in bands so the students can practice or the students can play if they know some licks, BUT . . . when I was on my tour, My guide said they brought in this acoustic player for the students to practice recording , and the guitar player requested to be recorded while playing naked . . WTF#!@#$ AND THE SCHOOL LET HIM WTF!!!! My guide said "yeah we turned every light down as low as we could, and put a curtain over the window, you will encounter things like that in "the real world"

Mixwell

13 Dec 2009, 12:34

Okay, for some time now I have been pondering, if I should go get a 4 year degree or go to a audio technical school because, 1. lets say I either picked Krass, Full Sail, or my home town college(that has a good starter kit for learning engineering from Sweetwater aka protools hd2 waves yada yada) for a degree in audio engineering. Then lets say tuition is 32k a year that's in the ball park of 124k for four years. . . . then I land a coffee bitch position lets say at strawberry fields in IN. All that schooling and money for straight or over under coiling mic cables. 2. Go to lets say recording workshop in Chillicothe Ohio for 5 weeks get some experience on some analogue and digital boards and some outboard gear and then go coil cables all for 5k? I know it sounds like I'm looking at prices, but I am not, I'm looking what I am going to get in the end, and you can not go wrong with education from a traditional college. But experience is key and I'm not going to learn all there is to know in a 5 week course or 4 years.

Or would going to a good studio with a good rep and just get coffee and move some mics around for a while and learn stuff as I go would be better?

What I have been told by people in the industry there is no 12 step process its all attitude and working REALLY HARD. It even took Eddie Kramer 4 years to make it to an assistant ENG. by pushing a "Bloody heavy tea cart around Olympic studios"(he did a Sweetwater conference thing I attended) And even people who go to Krass or Full Sail end up as the gofer.(according to Eddie)

I would appreciate any comment from any one on this subject, I'm kinda stuck on this right now.

Open your mind. Recording Music is not the only game in town. As in, there are other Audio Engineering Jobs and trades out there, that involve the physics and mechanics of audio engineering, opposed to simply recording music, "in the industry" yadda, yadda, blee blee. Rest assured, you're not going to be an Audio Engineer, unless you are an assistant for a number of years first and intern before that.

It is my experience, that some may fall into this category of Audio Engineer, but they are there under false advertising, and the real deal engineers are the working people who are making a living recording/mixing/mastering the stuff that we love pushing our earholes in and out with. However, there are VERY MANY people who are engineers in their own studios every night as hobbyists, fellow posters, etc, who all do this for the love [myself included] I will of course consider them true blue audio engineers. But yes, I do think bad mother f#ckers exist, and its not a myth. They might be endangered, so as a 28 year old punk m-f/r, I'm doing my best to kick it old school and learn the ways of the warrior, because I aspire to be a bad mother f#cker.

Fact is, this is an "Audio Pool". You must put it upon yourself to find out what you want to do. Find what you are good at and gravitate heavily but not solely to that. All these fields are different. Arm yourself and get the tools you need [learning] wherever possible. You can do anything you want if you apply yourself in the right ways. School is definitely an investment worth making in my opinion, and if the other posters don't think so, they simply would not get the same worth for the dough that I would, and have.

I'd like to speak generally and recommend that giving your Money to a school does not mean access to a brain, or guaranteed success. This also holds true for gear by the way. Its does not automatically give you the piece of paper that says you've accomplished something. It simply means access and hospitality to build the tools and skill set needed to create/have/involve yourself in a career and achieve success at what you choose to do in life. See the Gear/Music comparison? Remember the "Massive Problem__Spent 100K" Thread on Gearstulz?

Placement of Audio Productions students in the field is a very interesting statistic to say the least. My professors URGED me to LOOK at OTHER fields, NOT JUST TECHNICAL ENGINEERING OF RECORDED MUSIC. But you have to be true to yourself and find what makes you happy. That is really the only idea, I think as long as you are happy with what you do everyday you are winning in life. At school, I think some people choose to leave the access to knowledge in the dust while the stars in their eyes glaze over at the knobs and signal flow of the console and tape machine.

Some get the technical and some have no clue. Its all personal and situational, "so get in where you fit in" is what they say. Do you NEED school, to become an assistant, or a real deal engineer, NO, as this is not to say, that you cannot build this tool set, anywhere you fancy, however you like. There are plenty of great places to learn. Find them. Start at the bottom.

Work hard, and prove yourself. You are not going to make any money. You gotta be cool with that. Its takes a while, perhaps WAY longer than any average profession. This is why a school has the advantage in my book. Because most GOOD schools will HELP PLACE you in the FIELD, which will start you out on getting more experience, and making AT LEAST SOME money.

Experience is King, and you are the bottom rung on the ladder going in to whatever you go into. Interning can be hard, you've gotta have sac[m]/satchel[f], fortitude, pride, humility, responsibility, and you gotta get sh#t right or your m/f'd. At the end of the day, you don't need school to be a bad mother f#cker, you just need to know your sh#t, but know that where you learned your sh#t, is of no consequence to getting us a case of Heineken at cocktail hour.

Tomasz

14 Dec 2009, 08:48

Work hard, and prove yourself. You are not going to make any money. You gotta be cool with that. Its takes a while, perhaps WAY longer than any average profession. This is why a school has the advantage in my book. Because most GOOD schools will HELP PLACE you in the FIELD, which will start you out on getting more experience, and making AT LEAST SOME money.

Experience is King, and you are the bottom rung on the ladder going in to whatever you go into. Interning can be hard, you've gotta have sac[m]/satchel[f], fortitude, pride, humility, responsibility, and you gotta get sh#t right or your m/f'd. At the end of the day, you don't need school to be a bad mother f#cker, you just need to know your sh#t, but know that where you learned your sh#t, is of no consequence to getting us a case of Heineken at cocktail hour.

Mixwell has just revealed his true identity::: YODA

And YODA tells it like it is...

ears2thesky

14 Dec 2009, 13:25

Dan

15 Dec 2009, 13:12

I do recording and live sound. In the last twenty twenty years or so I have met many folks with audio engineering degrees from various schools. I have yet to meet one that was worth a shit. What the schools don't teach them are some of the most important elements of the craft like troubleshooting and client relations.

They may get a good dose of theory of compression, for instance, but they can't get a good sound with it. They may understand feedback but can't grab the offending frequency on an EQ with out trying half of them. They don't know the difference between the processing required for a country kick drum vs. a hard rock kick. They don't know what mics will yield what results on a given source. They don't realize that you can line check a band with phones and a PFL button so the audience doesn't have to hear a bunch of crap between sets. They can't figure out where the distortion is coming from or why there isn't anything in the bass DI channel. Gain structure? Ha! How about an over-under cable wrap? D'oh!

I'm sure there are some students that have graduated from these types of programs and do a great job. I just haven't met any of them.

This actually brings up a bigger, related question: should audio programs be more theoretical in nature or vocational? Should an audio program teach you how to listen, how to figure things out, and how to understand music or should it force you to memorize feedback frequencies or sonic characteristics of certain microphones?

On one hand, there is a need for a vocational approach so that students are able to walk out of school and perform some level of valuable service to an employer/client. OTOH, taking a more theoretical approach can expand the student's horizons a bit, help them have a deeper understanding of what they're doing and why, and ultimately teach them how to learn those vocational things for themselves.

I actually, think the audio industry as a whole has done a piss poor job of training the next generation of engineers. Schools want to teach fancy whiz-bang stuff that may or may not have any applicability to most real-world situations, and employers want somebody who can just show up and work w/o requiring any training. In practically every other industry, students are expected to come out of school with an understanding of the basics and an ability to learn, picking up job-specific skills on the job.

To address your specific issues, I would not expect a kid fresh out of school to immediately know which microphones work best on which sources (e.g. what's best on a snare: SM-57, Beta 57, i5, or PR-40?), but I would expect him to have a general idea (e.g. cardioid dynamic vs omni condensor) and be able critically evaluate a mic when given the chance to hear it.

I wouldn't necessarily expect him to be able to hit feedback frequencies immediately out of the gate, but he should know how to find them (he's using the graphic eq, after all, isn't he?) and with time, he'll get it.

I wouldn't expect him to master compression right out of school, but I would expect him to understand what it's doing, how it works, what to listen for (good and bad), and what potential problems it can cause (e.g. reduced GBF).

Gain staging and troubleshooting I would expect them to learn. Cable-wrapping is a toss-up. Over-under certainly has advantages, but can cause more problems than it's worth if you're using stagehands that don't know how to unwrap it properly or if the cable-wrap comes undone. Instead of a bunch of twists, you wind up with a bunch of knots.

I wouldn't expect them to be able to achieve a 'hard rock kick' vs a 'country kick,' but I would expect them to be able to hear and appreciate the difference between the two and be able to learn not just how to achieve both, but also when to use one over the other.

Ultimately, I'd much rather hire a smart, attentive person who knows the basics of engineering and teach them things like feedback frequencies, compression tricks, and how to mix lead kick drum instead of having someone who's got the basics nailed but can't step back and think about what he's doing and understand the underlying concepts.

-Dan.

Max Gain

06 Jan 2010, 12:51

Take a vo-tech electronics course and learn how to solder well!! You'll get a gig and you can spend your $100 grand on gear.

poserp

06 Jan 2010, 17:07

...Schools want to teach fancy whiz-bang stuff that may or may not have any applicability to most real-world situations, and employers want somebody who can just show up and work w/o requiring any training. In practically every other industry, students are expected to come out of school with an understanding of the basics and an ability to learn, picking up job-specific skills on the job.

I've spent time on both ends of the interview table as a computer programmer and I've met people with plenty of paper who don't know how to troubleshoot production issues (i.e., the website is down and we can't take any orders -- how do you fix it?). I got a 4yr degree but in a completely different field; I picked up programming by interning for little or no money during college and trying to figure stuff out on my own. That was a key experience for me because I learned how to pick up stuff on the job and how to design projects so that I could include interesting things I wanted to learn in them without destroying everything in the process. Anyways, I've been recommending to all of my friends that they learn some programming as it's a great job to do while you're trying to do something else. For instance, you can often find work as a contractor and set your own hours (and get paid a bit more than your average entry-level audio engineer) so you can do other stuff. And who knows? If you learn enough, you might be able to fuse the two interests by programming software and/or hardware for music.

phrenology

11 Jan 2010, 07:21

Here's what's not a waste of money: going to actual college, and spending all the time you are not spending studying hanging out at the local small recording studio making yourself useful. That way you both 1. learn engineering, and 2. give yourself all the other options a real education affords when the engineering thing doesn't work out like you had hoped. I did that, was lucky enough to have minimal debt, got a job at the biggest fanciest studio in the big fancy city, and HATED IT. I still love recording, and do more of it now then I did as an assistant. But i'm also going to be a doctor as my day job. It's all about options. YMMV.

The Nick

19 Jan 2010, 14:26

Zachg

19 Jan 2010, 17:43

I'm currently a sophomore in a program at the University of Michigan which, I would venture to say differs a fair bit from its peers. It's contained within the school of music and emphasizes a theoretical and practical knowledge of audio engineering (yes, real engineering sh#t - physics, computer science, acoustics, calculus) over BS like getting a Pro Tools "certification". Since it's a department in the school of music, there's a strong background in music theory, classical and technical ear training, composition, arranging, and musicology.

There's a big difference between spending time in the classroom, and spending time actually learning how to efficiently (and tastefully) apply techniques and concepts learned in the classroom. I mean, if you f#ck up a patch on a 6ft tall patch bay, clients are not going to sit around for 15 minutes while you review your notes on signal flow from tuesday's lecture. Luckily, I've come to experience great mentorship from older students sort of taking us under their wing and working on marathon sessions.

I will say right now that a degree in audio engineering will not mean a damn thing unless you put every waking minute of those four years into honing your craft. No one will take you seriously unless you're making some killin' stuff go down.

I don't mean to come across as a self-righteous jerk on my first post here, but I figured I may as well put it all on the line from the get-go.

I see excatly what you're saying, and it's so important. You're only going to get out of any form of education what you put into it. Say, you try super hard but don't have great grades, teachers will see that your actually trying and you will be rearded for trying hard. Same thing apllies to learning to be an AE. Experience and listening hard to teach (rudely expensive speaker can easily help you listen for differences tho,) and they are easily the two most important things to a great AE, unless you're a total gearslut. As I was attempting to say in the problem solving thread, experience so important to be sucessful.

Welcome to the forum by the way, The Nick! :)

Cheers, Zach

Sandyrb

19 Jan 2010, 21:09

...and learn how to solder well!!

Here's another damn good point, mister Gain sir, well said please and thank you. Holy crap the number of guys who turn up to the studio wanting a job and I'll ask "how are you at soldering?". Then they'll answer "I've never tried it" or something similarly inane. Old fart speaking here but when I was a lad a basic knowledge of soldering was mandatory for every red-blooded schoolboy. How else would you repair your favorite electrical/electronic gadget/toy without incurring the wrath of dad? ;)

Anyway, back to point, clearly audio engineering is a multi-discipline thing; we need technical and artistic skills of all kinds. Again, I get guys who are great on [insert audio software of choice here] but don't know their ear from their elbow when it comes to mics. Then I get the live sound dudes who can coil cables like there's no tomorrow but don't know the difference between one note and another. Then I get the musos who are all over the augmented and diminished chords but confuse a screwdriver with a soldering iron.

Which point brings me full circle. I consider soldering an essential skill for the potential audio engineer. But I am tempted to wonder . . . how many audio / recording schools actually include it in their curriculum?

Cheers,

Halfway Competent

20 Jan 2010, 00:31

I have a degree in audio engineering from a local community college. The program was actually pretty decent, and I did learn a thing or three from it.

This goes for any education, though: What I got out of it was directly proportional to what I put into it. My passion is audio... I LOVE music and I love the quest to do it proud from an engineering perspective (I've tried the musician thing... I serve the music world better by NOT playing, hah).

Every audio/mixing/recording class (among other classes such as music theory, piano, legal, etc) required students to get practical experience in the school's studio. One of our projects was to check out the ADATs of a session recorded some years ago and mix it. We would then listen to everyone's mix in class and comment on it. I re-mixed it three times before I turned it in, after listening to it at home, in the car, etc. Some of my classmates wanted my help in the studio to help them figure out how to operate the board, ADATs, etc. Then I'd offer some observations while mixing, i.e. "during this guitar solo, there's a weird noise on the vocal track." Their response? "That's fine, I don't really care. I just want something to turn in." Incidentally, mine was the only mix that wasn't turned off after a minute or so, and had classmates asking me how I did it.

Of course, if you're posting to this forum and thinking of going to audio school, I presume that you're serious and passionate about music and good sound.

I'll tell you what's helped immensely: A basic understanding of electricity. When you learn how electricity works, you'll really own all those little plugs on your mixer/outboard gear. And I agree with others that you need to know how to solder. I often find myself repairing my cables, or upgrading connectors (the cheap connectors on cheap mic cable will loosen up after a while and make poor connection; I replace them with Neutriks). Building some of your own shit also helps your understanding of how it works. (My speaker project of a few years ago: http://www.flickr.com/photos/thesoundman/sets/72157603769200062/ )

And, to top it all off, don't worry about "rules". There are no rules, only guidelines (except for things like, don't plug a ribbon mic into phantom power or you'll damage it). Who says you can't use an SDC as a vocal mic? I happen to know from personal experience that the Shure SM-94 works great as a vocal mic. :) The key is to experiment, mess around, and find out what works. And if you need a starting point, well... That's where these forums are handy. ;)

Have fun!

cookseyeng

20 Jan 2010, 07:49

Originally Posted by The Nick
I'm currently a sophomore in a program at the University of Michigan which, I would venture to say differs a fair bit from its peers. It's contained within the school of music and emphasizes a theoretical and practical knowledge of audio engineering (yes, real engineering sh#t - physics, computer science, acoustics, calculus) over BS like getting a Pro Tools "certification". Since it's a department in the school of music, there's a strong background in music theory, classical and technical ear training, composition, arranging, and musicology.

it must be nice to work on that api 1608 uofm is like 30 minutes from my house

The Nick

20 Jan 2010, 17:28

it must be nice to work on that api 1608 uofm is like 30 minutes from my house

Actually, I spend most of my time working on the 48-channel API Vision :D - the 1608 ain't fully functional yet!

cookseyeng

24 Jan 2010, 08:41

the 1608 ain't fully functional yet!
there is a guy in jackson who has one up and running

The Nick

24 Jan 2010, 22:49

there is a guy in jackson who has one up and running

Man, I can't wait to work on that console. I see it a few times a week through the gap in the door - just sitting there in all of its glory. :)

Gailid

25 Jan 2010, 15:45

I Did a 4 year with a Music Bus major. So it wasn't an engineering degree or even any sort of concentration on engineering (outside the mandatory Studio classes).
However, all my internships were in Studios, I worked 2 of my 4 years as one of only 2 Student Studio Assistants, and I traveled for 3 of my 4 years on a scholarshiped, School sponsored touring group as their Live sound tech (hauling our full sound sys, setup/tear down, maintenance, etc). We went out 90% of the weekends that school was in session, as well as a 6 week summer tour. I was also the Go-To sound guy for all school events that needed a live engineer for the built-in house sound sys, or for any outdoor events that needed a sound sys brought in and ran.

I say all that, not to boast (not really a huge amount to boast over anyways), but to show how involved I was. I could go into great detail about how much each experience taught me, and which vital piece of experience was learned, but that's the same old story.

I'm now sitting in a warehouse doing inventory, and (on the side) running an extremely small production company. (and feeling sad about it)

(here is the "life lesson" for those still starting out). I constantly look back and see where I fell short. Internships. Not just the concept of an internship, we all hear and regurgitate the words "internship is important". But seriously diving into an internship for not only the experience, but (just as important) the relationships. In my opinion, those networked relationships mean everything, more so for the business side of the industry than studio work, but they are vital to landing that key internship/assistant positions needed to progress.

I think the networkablitiy of the Professors define the successes of a School's Music Bus program (including engineering).

Here is the reason I am/feel stuck. Internships are the key starting a career in studio work. You almost have to bank on one of your internships hiring you or giving you a referral. But, even with a referral, who's going to hire a worker with the experience level of an intern when they can get an intern for free. By law, a businesses can not have free labor. Workers must be paid min wage (aside from obvious things, food service, valet, etc) or be enrolled in a school's internship class. I know this because my wife works for Starstruck (http://www.starstruckstudios.com/) on Music Row, Nashville, and a year or so ago, they had to send home 3-5 guys from Full Sail who had completed their semester internship but didn't want to leave. The studio wasn't about to hire them, they couldn't afford it.

So, here I am, out of college, wishing I could come wrap cables and make coffee for some studio, but I'm competing with free internship labor.

Sandyrb

25 Jan 2010, 18:45

So, here I am, out of college, wishing I could come wrap cables and make coffee for some studio, but I'm competing with free internship labor.

Hey Craig I'm genuinely sorry to hear that it didn't pan out for you. Wish there was something I could do to help. But the way I've seen it go pretty much sums up your post; "The only way to get hired is by having experience and the only way to have experience is by getting hired". Which really sucks for a lot of people these days. I don't think the recording market is doing enough business to absorb the massive influx of new talent that becomes available every year.

I wish every studio owner / operator on here could actually do something and hire guys like yourself, but in some cases there's barely enough work to go round as it is. I suppose it seems like I paint a gloomy picture, but I'm just being realistic.

Anyway, hope things pick up for you somehow.

Cheers,
Sandy.

albert

30 Jan 2010, 05:12

Wow, this is such a complex topic, I don't know how to jump in. However, there have been many great things said in here by Sandy and Adam.

Let me just mention something I learned in college from my sound recording professor: "Sound engineering is blue collar work."

You better be dying to get into this big mess for all the right reasons, believe me. :)

Ears_for_days

02 Feb 2010, 10:16

Warning, I'm new...so be kind.

I am one of those kids that went to ************** University and graduated with a 4 year degree in something like Recording Engineering. Honestly, I can tell anyone that is wanting to do this that a 4 year degree is not required to become a good recording engineer and I probably could have saved myself $30,000 by looking around for a longterm internship at a local studio but! I'm still glad I did it. There was more that I wanted to learn than just audio engineering and going to a 4 year university gave me that opportunity. Even so, when I did finally do my internship I learned more in those 6 months than I had learned the previous two years at school. So...do whatever you want but there is no reason why you can't be a good engineer without going to school. Weirdly though, I did land a job that required a 4 year degree. Just the luck of the draw.

SonoPhotoStudios.com

21 Aug 2010, 04:02

I considered the school thing but at 42 it just wasn't attractive. Obviously my position isn't the same as a young person just starting out. The only real advantage that I could see in recording school is access, however access can be bought, gifted talent and real skills are good hard money. So is good hard money.

Learn how to do all of the niggly technical bits that so many young people don't learn anymore because they spent their youth playing video games and watching the idiot box all evening. Electricity, Basic Electronics (amplifiers and filters) Signal Path, Gain, Soldering, Basic Acoustics and Sound Propagation. The truth is that if you don't understand those things well, you can't really learn the rest. No foundation.

$100,000K is a lot of money. It is a very very big bill to pay off if you can't get a good paying job. It took me 15 years to pay off the 40K I spent on college and my work as a programmer and lab technician is a lot easier to find than recording engineer.

It is not illegal to work for someone for free, they might tell you that but it isn't true. However, in our overly litigious society everyone is concerned about liability and apparently when an adult signs a waiver it can't actually be enforced in court. That is why they won't let you work for free: Insurance.

For my money I would get a useful B.S./B.A. in a field you can tolerate and spend all your extra time and money buying your own gear and offering to record people for free once you have enough going on to make it sound good. Once you have done that for a bit you actually have a portfolio of work you can shop around. If you are gifted and tenacious you will eventually be able to get into the business through a side door or even the back door. (this is what I am doing now, but my goal is on a stage with a guitar, not the studio)

There are mad resources for learning real world techniques all over the internet (I think this is one of them). These are free or really cheap. Wikipedia is (in general) a good resource on the basics of technical topics.

Network. When ! played professionally during the late 80s there was nothing more important than Networking if you wanted to get paid to play, In Houston back then even skill wasn't more important (as long as you were in the ballpark so to speak). Go to conferences, conventions etc. be patient, think long term, make real friends and hone your skills. If you are gifted/highly effective you will slowly but surely begin to grow a following. Maybe one day some band you have worked on will insist you produce, or one of your many friends will put the right bug in the right ear and you will get a phone call one afternoon... That is the other thing: Always Be PREPARED!!!

That day job you can put up with is a real anchor. Remember there is a trade-off between Payday / Work Stress. Good Paying jobs often demand a lot from your energy leaving you tired at the end of the workday - that job at the Music Store might not pay as well but you will grow more contacts, get discounts on gear, get shots at good used gear, and not get home stressed out because you didn't get the TPL report in on time to the CFO.

I hope this helps someone, but: YMMV.

SonoPhotoStudios.com

21 Aug 2010, 04:19

I know a gal that when she was 16 years old she dropped out of school, hung out with hard drug dealers, and did all the wrong things. You would have expected to have seen her on a street corner by the time she was 21 (if not sooner) turns out she met a concert promoter in her travels.

18 years later that girl has been on more stages with more big names than you would ever guess: As the Stage Manager. She made friends and she made herself very useful and she has been working in her dream job ever since. Her life hasn't been all roses and fairy tales but she's got access. High School Dropout, no college, probably can only do basic math, but she is good with people, willing to work and learn and she LOVES the stage.

Luck is when preparation meets opportunity, get prepared...

To short circuit the casting couch quips. Don't go there, she's a friend's daughter. Thanks :)

Scodiddly

21 Aug 2010, 11:43

"Old school" would mean an electrical engineering degree. Those guys from the 60's and 70's had to build most of their gear before they could press "Record"! Good thing a few of them were decent musicians, or least had good taste in music, as well as being enginerds.

These days a degree in computer science or computer engineering would be just as good. The big payoff for any hard engineering degree is that you can always get a decent straight job if the music thing isn't working out. I burned out as a software guy a few years ago and got back into live sound, but most of my paycheck comes from doing gear repairs nowadays.

Fivewaters

10 Nov 2010, 03:09

I think that a college degree from an accredited school is worth persuing with the following caveat: the degree doesn't get you the job. YOU get you the job. You're portfolio gets you the job. There are many studios, today, that do require a BA or BS degree in order to get through the door. Take in mind that places like Full Sail are not accredited schools. In the long run, a degree won't hurt you and opens up many options.

Audio engineering isn't just about recording. Careers include Front of House (and not just the local bar. We're talking performing arts venues), House of Worship, Maintenance and Calibration, Sound Design, Midi Sequencing, Teaching, Location Recording (this would be the guy that holds the mic for the camera man), Post Production, Surround Sound, Mastering, and Forensics. Eventually, you'll probably be married with kids. You'll need a steady income and stable hours. That degree can help you.

That being said, there are more affordable ways to get that degree besides laying down $124K. Check around your area for a community college with a basic recording program. Intern and network, shadow engineers and techs, pick up FOH gigs at the local bar. Volunteer for a radio station that does live broadcasts. Develop a network and get some experience under your belt. Then transfer into a good recording program. Did I mention that student membership for AES is only 35 bucks?

There is a lot to learn in recording. First and fundementally, if you are in college go heavy on the math and heavy on the writing, this is scalable to anything you do. In recording, learn signal flow, signal flow and more signal flow. Very important for troubleshooting. Get proficient in ProTools it's the defacto standard for audio recording. Being proficient in Logic wouldn't hurt either.

While in school, do two or three internships. Try to get an internship at a big name studio, where you have a snowball's chance in hell of getting on (still ask for the job, however). It will look great on your resume. Then intern at some of the more successful studios in your area where you stand a better chance of getting hired on. Learn how to lead professionally. Learn as much as you can about demeanor. Outside the studio, many of these guys sound like passionate Type A people. But in the studio, I bet they act more like Vulcans with social skills. It's an important skill to develop.

And yea, count on being an educated nudnick starting out. We're all human on this forum and no one was hatched with the great knowledge they posess. That knowledge was learned -- sometimes at the cost of a stupid mistake. Everyone gets a chance to be a nudnick at one time or another. Better to get killed in school for it rather than in the field.

Mixwell

10 Nov 2010, 07:48

But in the studio, I bet they act more like Vulcans with social skills. It's an important skill to develop.

Truly Well spoken Fivewaters! But this specifically above REALLY resonates with me, given SPOCK's INTENSE PATIENCE and METHODICAL ATTITUDE. Its perfect.

cookseyeng

11 Nov 2010, 18:02

I went to the recording school in Ohio and learned a ton of stuff and now I'm making and soldering everything I can get my hands on , and I might have employment next week at a studio not too far away from where I'm at now, if everything goes right I might go get a associates in business management through online courses, but the that school really helped me out a lot and gave me tips on how to go about applying for jobs and gave me leads to places that might be hiring. I'm just glad I'm kinda skipping intern and going straight to Assistant ENG. but then again were all interns in this thing called life.

Tomasz

12 Nov 2010, 07:50

I went to the recording school in Ohio an

The one in southern Ohio? or Massieville, more specifically? we may be fellow Alums..
:D

cookseyeng

13 Nov 2010, 21:12

yeah massieville i took the late summer course

Tomasz

18 Nov 2010, 13:33

yeah massieville i took the late summer course

Late summer 2010?... pan dem shitz!!! :D

cookseyeng

20 Nov 2010, 00:11

yeah late summer