Why don't I like this?

[Halfway Competent]

Back in March I recorded a friend's fusion jazz trio (keys, bass, him on drums). It was a rehearsal for demo purposes to try to recruit a guitar player, so the recording wasn't critical. That was great, because even though they love it as demo material, I think the mix is crap. And I can't get it to a point where I like it... Whatever I think I hear that is wrong with it, and correct that, it's almost like it makes it worse.

Anyway, could you all take a listen to this clip and see what you think? I'd love to hear ways you think it could be improved. They've asked me to record them again, so I'll have a chance to correct errors!

Thanks!

[Christopher McDonald]

try a different verb and try to give the drums a more 70s than 90s sound. bring back the rhodes a little bit and give it some warm tubey love to make it less "DI". listen to some early return to forever and the herbie hancock mwandishi sessions or frankly even headhunters, and then you'll know why you don't like it.

[Halfway Competent]

try a different verb and try to give the drums a more 70s than 90s sound. bring back the rhodes a little bit and give it some warm tubey love to make it less "DI". listen to some early return to forever and the herbie hancock mwandishi sessions or frankly even headhunters, and then you'll know why you don't like it.

Thanks for the response!

What sort of 'verb would you suggest? Shorter decay? Less of it? Unfortunately I don't have any gear to give the keyboard any warm, tubey love, and no distortion-type plugs, either. There was a horrible midrange peak that I dropped a bit to smooth out the sound... Maybe I should put that back? Also, I'm not sure what you mean by 70s drums. How would I get that effect?

Thanks for the music recs, I'll check them out!

[Mixwell]

Everything sounds good to me, but the balances in the mix could suit the music better I think. You have the drums a little too forward for the style of music, and the bass is not as bold and forward as I would mix this sound.

Pull the drums back and bring the bass up a little.

The reverb was a little much but it didn't bother me.

I think you just need to tweak your balances and tighten up the instruments in context with each other a little better. Try and find the "melting note" between the bass and kick drum that seemingly glues the rhythm together and makes way for other elements to be highlighted. I would also investigate some interesting panning for the keys.

[Halfway Competent]

Everything sounds good to me, but the balances in the mix could suit the music better I think. You have the drums a little too forward for the style of music, and the bass is not as bold and forward as I would mix this sound.

Pull the drums back and bring the bass up a little.

The reverb was a little much but it didn't bother me.

I think you just need to tweak your balances and tighten up the instruments in context with each other a little better. Try and find the "melting note" between the bass and kick drum that seemingly glues the rhythm together and makes way for other elements to be highlighted. I would also investigate some interesting panning for the keys.

Thanks for the input! I did do a mix where the bass was farther forward than this, but it became overwhelming... I could roll off some of the low end and see if that helps.

But tell me more about this bass/kick "melting note"... It's not a concept I've heard of. Also, by "tighten up the instruments" are you referring to the musicians' timing? 'Cause I can't exactly fix that...

[Mixwell]

Thanks for the input! I did do a mix where the bass was farther forward than this, but it became overwhelming... I could roll off some of the low end and see if that helps.

But tell me more about this bass/kick "melting note"... It's not a concept I've heard of. Also, by "tighten up the instruments" are you referring to the musicians' timing? 'Cause I can't exactly fix that...

I meant "tighten" the "real estate" for each instrument. This real estate is what I call "frequency response" and bandwidth and space/room of the track. Everything has its home, and "the melting note" is when it all binds together and every note is able to blend with every other note, giving you some "cohesion" for the parts played. People do refer to this magical note melting as "the pocket". Its just a mixing thought process, as its all contextually related.

[Sandyrb]

Anyway, could you all take a listen to this clip and see what you think?

I love it!

What would I change? The snare drum's a bit one-sided... more mids and less lows on the bass... Perhaps find a way to give the keys some stereo spread... back off the reverbs a bit... not much really. I find it very pleasing to my ear; what more could I ask? :)

And I love your drum tones. That snare's all crack, no slack! :)

"If it sounds right, it is right" - Joe Meek.

Cheers,

[Halfway Competent]

I love it!

What would I change? The snare drum's a bit one-sided... more mids and less lows on the bass... Perhaps find a way to give the keys some stereo spread... back off the reverbs a bit... not much really. I find it very pleasing to my ear; what more could I ask? :)

And I love your drum tones. That snare's all crack, no slack! :)

"If it sounds right, it is right" - Joe Meek.

Cheers,

Hmm... you all are describing my previous mix of this session. Bring the bass forward and add more mids, and back off the 'verb. :D

As for the snare drum, it's a steel Pearl snare that the drummer tuned very tightly; miked with a Beta 57A. It's off-center 'cause the overheads heard it really well, and I just did a spaced pair for them.

Thanks for the kudos!

[Sandyrb]

As for the snare drum, [...] it's off-center 'cause the overheads heard it really well, and I just did a spaced pair for them.

Okay, now I'm curious. What mics/pre were you using for those overheads and how were they placed? If you don't mind me asking, that is.

Cheers,

[pauly]

There was a horrible midrange peak that I dropped a bit to smooth out the sound...

the first thing that stood out to me as a bassist was the the scooped out "david eden style" bass sound. if that is his sound than good but to me the bottom is excessive. but i have always been into the flat sound of a great bass amp and let the character of the bass dictate tone.

i would have to say my recordings tend to be very dry in respect to reverbs, just natural rooms sounds so the verb sounded very false to me.

i do think for a quick demo for your friends it sounds very good and try not to beat yourself up over it, they like it. maybe you can get them in a more lively room next time around.

[Halfway Competent]

the first thing that stood out to me as a bassist was the the scooped out "david eden style" bass sound. if that is his sound than good but to me the bottom is excessive. but i have always been into the flat sound of a great bass amp and let the character of the bass dictate tone.

i would have to say my recordings tend to be very dry in respect to reverbs, just natural rooms sounds so the verb sounded very false to me.

i do think for a quick demo for your friends it sounds very good and try not to beat yourself up over it, they like it. maybe you can get them in a more lively room next time around.

The bassist was using a cheap instrument and cheap amp for rehearsal. I went direct before the amp, and ended up rolling off the lows and boosting the mids... originally.

[pauly]

The bassist was using a cheap instrument and cheap amp for rehearsal. I went direct before the amp, and ended up rolling off the lows and boosting the mids... originally.

thats a bummer, i will often put a mic up and di even if the amp is a piece, sometimes a combo bass amp driven hard make's for a good sound. but nothing wrong with going di on bass, jaco recorded direct. the player sounds good so if the bass has a great natural balanced sound your most often good to go. if i have a hard time fitting in the mix i grab another bass, too bad there wasn't another option.

[Dan]

too bad there wasn't another option.

Reamping is always another option.

-Dan.

[Sandyrb]

Reamping is always another option.

I love reamping! It's one of my favorite things to do. God bless the Radial JD-7! :)

Cheers,

[Halfway Competent]

Okay, now I'm curious. What mics/pre were you using for those overheads and how were they placed? If you don't mind me asking, that is.

Cheers,

Sorry, totally missed this.

The overheads were a stereo pair of A-T 4033s above the kit; one kinda over the crash/snare/hat area, the other over the ride/other crash/floor tom. Both of them pointed downward. Preamp was a Presonus Digimax LT.

[Sandyrb]

The overheads were a stereo pair of A-T 4033s [...] Preamp was a Presonus Digimax LT.

Interesting! Thanks Adam. :)

Cheers,

[Halfway Competent]

Hmm... you all are describing my previous mix of this session. Bring the bass forward and add more mids, and back off the 'verb. :D

As for the snare drum, it's a steel Pearl snare that the drummer tuned very tightly; miked with a Beta 57A. It's off-center 'cause the overheads heard it really well, and I just did a spaced pair for them.

Thanks for the kudos!

I took some of your suggestions, and also made some observations of my own after comparing my recording to a Fourplay track ("Still The One"). Here's a new revision of the mix. I still feel like the whole thing doesn't really gel together, though. In any case, the cymbals sound a lot better, and I actually really like them now!

Thanks for your suggestions, and I'm really enjoying this discussion. :)

[Sandyrb]

Thanks for your suggestions, and I'm really enjoying this discussion. :)

You know, I gotta be totally honest, I prefer the old version. This one sounds kinda squashy and the drums have lost some of their punch. The bass is definitely more present and has a more appropriate tone, I'll say that.

It's still good, mind you, I still like it. If I was your client my only observation would be that snare drum being one-sided, which I find a bit disorientating. It's not an unforgivable sin though. ;) Apart from that it's great; still pleasing to my ear.

Cheers,

[albert]

If it were me, I would keep the drums mono. Some people might find that strange though, so don't listen to me.

[Halfway Competent]

You know, I gotta be totally honest, I prefer the old version. This one sounds kinda squashy and the drums have lost some of their punch. The bass is definitely more present and has a more appropriate tone, I'll say that.

It's still good, mind you, I still like it. If I was your client my only observation would be that snare drum being one-sided, which I find a bit disorientating. It's not an unforgivable sin though. ;) Apart from that it's great; still pleasing to my ear.

Cheers,

Ahh, you've found me out! I put some compression on the drum bus. When I was playing with the mix, I found the drums sounded better when they were louder... But I was trying the suggestion of holding them back. I also completely removed compression from the kick and just put some bass EQ in... Turned the rest of the drums down. Kick sounds a lot better that way, to my ears. For some reason the snare sounds weak, like it's being weakly played... I know that wasn't the case, because I know how loud that drum was. I think ultimately I needed room mics.

But you see the conundrum, here! :) The drums sound good when they're too loud, etc.

[pauly]

compression can make things sound small, try blending in dry drum sounds or parallel compression. it might let you pull back the kit without sounding small.

[Halfway Competent]

compression can make things sound small, try blending in dry drum sounds or parallel compression. it might let you pull back the kit without sounding small.

Good idea! I assigned the drums to a bus and set up two aux input channels fed from the same bus; one with comp, one without. I adjusted the overall drum balance, adjusted (read: removed) some EQ and comp, and set a shorter decay on the reverb. I think I actually like it now...

http://www.tewsnet.com/dropbox/FusionSample.mp3

[ears2thesky]

I agree the last one sounds best. Gotta love parallel compression.