Minimal but awesome studio - advice?

[skye]

hey all. i'm trying to build a minimal but awesome and unique studio. i don't want to bother going with low-end gear. i did that before and had a big collection which was stolen a few years ago. now it's dream gear only. how's this sound:

x = i already have it

Outboard:
x 2 FMR RNCs
FMR RNLA
FMR PBC-6A
EL Distressor (mono or stereo?)
parametric eq?

Converters:
JCF AD8SL
JCF DA-8V

Preamps:
BLA Auteur
suggestions for more?

Mics:
x SM-58
2 TAB SM-57
x 2 (stereo pair) Rode NT-1A
x MXL V76t (upgrade tube?)
Earthworks DK50 kit

Interface:
x Euphonix MC Control
x 2 Euphonix MC Mix
RME AES32

[seaneldon]

I think your priorities are kinda wrong. How long have you been doing this? You want to spend upwards of $14k on 8 channels of converters to plug in shrill RODE and MXL mics? Back-asswards.

I wouldn't worry about the big "list o' gear". Acquire your tools one or three at a time as the needs arise. Maybe get started with the acoustic design of the room so that ANY gear will sound better, y'know?

[skye]

heh. not very long. but i don't want to go the "get a bunch of crap and upgrade from there" route. if i'm going to get the money together to do this, i want to do it right. the converters, preamps, and mics are the most important things, right? so given that those are the best converters available, what should i aim for as far as the mics and pres? i know the blue bottle is way up there as far as super quality condensers. a crowley & tripp el diablo would be great to mix in with the earthworks kit and for bass. any advice would be much appreciated.

the acoustic design will all be from scratch, so the room will sound nice. i have a friend who does room acoustics, luckily.

[domo peace]

In my very limited experience I've learned to not investing hardware or software related to recording. Imvho buy mics and pres - skip the pc bunk as it will be worth much less in a year.

[skye]

okay, but what mics and pres? would this be a good cabinet?

sm58 (maybe sell the one i have and get the tab version)
2 tab sm57
blue bottle (capsule pack?)
crowley and tripp el diablo
earthworks dk50/r kit (stereo matched pair of qtc40s, sr30, kickpad, 3 level pads)

i sold both rode mics today. i'd been trying to for a while, and the opinion on them from sean cemented the decision. just a nice coincidence that i ran into a friend needing cheap condensers!

and as far as pres, i have no idea what to look for. i can get universal audio stuff (relatively) cheap, so that could be a good option. if it's any help as far as sound color, i'm really into the fact that the jcf da-8v says "it sounds like it looks".

[domo peace]

okay, but what mics and pres? would this be a good cabinet?

sm58 (maybe sell the one i have and get the tab version)
2 tab sm57
blue bottle (capsule pack?)
crowley and tripp el diablo
earthworks dk50/r kit (stereo matched pair of qtc40s, sr30, kickpad, 3 level pads)

i sold both rode mics today. i'd been trying to for a while, and the opinion on them from sean cemented the decision. just a nice coincidence that i ran into a friend needing cheap condensers!

and as far as pres, i have no idea what to look for. i can get universal audio stuff (relatively) cheap, so that could be a good option. if it's any help as far as sound color, i'm really into the fact that the jcf da-8v says "it sounds like it looks".


Before heeding my opinion please note - I am a hobbyist and not a pro like some of these guys. I do this in my spare time (although I would love to move into working professionally with engineering or producting.

I can tell you that compared to the pres in my Digi001 - the FMR Audio Really Nice Preamp really improved my sound. I then sold that (since I only track 1 channel at a time) and got the Great River single channel pre to see how much a real piece of equipment would make a difference. The truth is - it made a HUGE difference. Layered tracks no longer sound muffled. This preamp is amazing. I still have to buy a really great mic or 2 and have been using cheapies. I have to wait for some time before I make this investment but will do it eventually. I can tell you though that the Great River pre has even made my cheap mics sound better. I can't imagine what will happen when I get some great mics.

I guess I ultimately see myself just buying mics, pres and non-computer related gear when I am spending cash on this stuff b/c the Mac set up I bought in 2001 for over $3500 is now worth $50. I wish I had spent that $3500 on mics and other gear and just bought a lame standalone recording for a couple hundred.

The guys on this forum could probably give you better options on what to buy.

[Dan]

heh. not very long. but i don't want to go the "get a bunch of crap and upgrade from there" route. if i'm going to get the money together to do this, i want to do it right. the converters, preamps, and mics are the most important things, right?

They're important, but in the opposite order and with converters farther down the list. Josh (from JCF) is a cool dude and his gear is great, but for a noob on a budget, it's kind of a silly way to prioritize your purchases. If all you want is 8 channels of conversion, an Aurora 8 or Rosetta 800 are pro-level products that would serve your needs for a L-O-N-G time and leave you with about $10K extra to spend on mics, preamps, and other things that are going to make a much bigger impact on your sound quality.

a crowley & tripp el diablo would be great to mix in with the earthworks kit and for bass. any advice would be much appreciated.

FYI: C&T got bought by Shure, so the "El Diablo" and any other C&T mics are no longer available. The El Diablo and the Naked Eye w/ Roswellite have been rebranded as the KSM-something-or-other.

-Dan.

[domo peace]

They're important, but in the opposite order and with converters farther down the list. Josh (from JCF) is a cool dude and his gear is great, but for a noob on a budget, it's kind of a silly way to prioritize your purchases. If all you want is 8 channels of conversion, an Aurora 8 or Rosetta 800 are pro-level products that would serve your needs for a L-O-N-G time and leave you with about $10K extra to spend on mics, preamps, and other things that are going to make a much bigger impact on your sound quality.



FYI: C&T got bought by Shure, so the "El Diablo" and any other C&T mics are no longer available. The El Diablo and the Naked Eye w/ Roswellite have been rebranded as the KSM-something-or-other.

-Dan.

The part of about the "El Diablo" I have not heard. I was hoping to pick up the Mercenary El Diablo as my first big mic purchase (and first ribbon mic). That is a true bummer! :(:(:(:(:(:(

Is the quality the same as a Shure?

[skye]

i don't know if i even need 8 channels of conversion. in the interest of saving rack space and having more versatility, maybe i'll just go with a jcf latte. then i get 2 channels of A/D/A and some super-sweet preamps in the deal.

[level devil]

Do some googling about "control room acoustic treatment" "recording studio acoustics" "bass traps" "tube traps" "LEDE" "reflection free zone" "diffusion"
Read everything you can find. Getting some good books on the subject might be even better.

After that, consider the place where you record and mix. Does it still feel reasonable to spend all those money on outboard gear? If it does, please come back for more help.

If it does NOT... then you owe me one for being so helpful. :)

Good look man!

[pauly]

order of priority for me is great song> performance> instrument> microphone >preamp>converter. and you don't have to spend a fortune for good conversion, the auroras or a rosetta is killer.

i think sean said buy one or three things and go from there, i cant tell you how frustrating it is to spend 30k, you blew your whole wad and realized you forgot to get the basics like well made mic stands, quality cables or a patch bay to make your life easier.

[skye]

okay. i think i'm looking at this, keeping in mind the priority order:

mics:
blue bottle w/capsule pack
2 tab sm-57s
royer r-121
earthworks dk 50/r

pres:
great river meq-1nv
jcf latte?

converter:
jcf latte?

monitors:
focal twin6 be
focal sub6 be

room treatment:
realtraps megatraps floor to ceiling in all 4 corners
auralex lenrds on wall/ceiling corners
auralex dst-112s/114s on walls
(auralex stuff because i already have it)

patch bay:
adc tt 48 pt.

cables:
mogami?

mic stands:
??

i'm wondering if i actually need 8 channels of a/d/a. might the 2 channels in the latte (plus it's sweet preamps) not be sufficient? i know i'll only need 2 channels of da, but will i need more ad to record drums? can the signals from the preamps be mixed down for conversion? if not, i'll look at getting a rosetta 800 and an api 3124+ for some more preamp action.

this all puts me about about 40k, which is approximately what i'm going for in the loan.

any insight into any of this stuff? especially mics. there are so many on the market, i'm trying to stick with stuff that seems to be pretty universal. room treatment, too. the bass traps seem to be the most important thing to getting a good room sound without making it sound totally dead.

[pauly]

i know the jfc latte seems to be pretty hip and seeing that your intent on blowing all your cash in one shot. id look at a rosetta, that would leave you with enough cash to get a pair of distressors and maybe another mic maybe a bock 195. i just think at 6500 beans for two channels of conversion there is so much other stuff you'll benefit much more from.

the api is a great piece, and i have the twin 6 focals and am very happy with them.

if your looking at the royer's the aea's are great too. the royer and my tg2 (chandler pre) i use on every session latley.

i would contact a dealer and at least hear some of these things before you buy them, allot of this gear is very expensive and what sounds good for me may not too you. also a dealer can help you write out a signal chain and make sure you're not forgetting anything that can be easy to forget, like what's going to control your monitors. if your going to spend that much cash a dealer will be happy to help you through, plus its good to have a dealer that you do most of your purchasing with, they will appreciate you.

[pauly]

look into building your own traps as nice as the realtraps are i think they are expensive, or if your lazy try gik acoustics.

[albert]

okay. i think i'm looking at this, keeping in mind the priority order:

mics:
blue bottle w/capsule pack
2 tab sm-57s
royer r-121
earthworks dk 50/r

pres:
great river meq-1nv
jcf latte?

converter:
jcf latte?

monitors:
focal twin6 be
focal sub6 be

room treatment:
realtraps megatraps floor to ceiling in all 4 corners
auralex lenrds on wall/ceiling corners
auralex dst-112s/114s on walls
(auralex stuff because i already have it)

patch bay:
adc tt 48 pt.

cables:
mogami?

mic stands:
??

i'm wondering if i actually need 8 channels of a/d/a. might the 2 channels in the latte (plus it's sweet preamps) not be sufficient? i know i'll only need 2 channels of da, but will i need more ad to record drums? can the signals from the preamps be mixed down for conversion? if not, i'll look at getting a rosetta 800 and an api 3124+ for some more preamp action.

this all puts me about about 40k, which is approximately what i'm going for in the loan.

any insight into any of this stuff? especially mics. there are so many on the market, i'm trying to stick with stuff that seems to be pretty universal. room treatment, too. the bass traps seem to be the most important thing to getting a good room sound without making it sound totally dead.


Honestly, you do not need 40k dollars worth of equipment to do whatever you want to do. I believe you are choosing to acquire certain things that will lose value in the future, or you may find you are not truly interested in.

Why not buy a nice set of converters like the Lynx Aurora, and if you really want to have leverage on that, get the 16 channel version. And then go from there, the same way investors do dollar cost averaging, you should acquire perhaps a piece of gear a month for the next year as you learn. You cannot speed up a process that others take so many years on.

And seriously, the blue bottle? For that kind of money I don't believe the versatility is there.

All I know for sure that is good news out of what you mentioned: You will probably not regret buying the Great River, and get the 57s because, what the hell, they're so cheap anyway, if you insist.

Also, consider getting a TRS patch-field instead perhaps out of pragmatism in your particular case.

Again, consider spending the money over an extended period of time so that you will have no regrets. It still sounds to me as if you are not sure about what you are looking for, which is cool, because we are all on that journey together.

All the best, I will elaborate on any point you desire,

cheers,
albert

P.S. if I were you, I would find a good deal on a console with that money and make records that way instead, a whole bunch of EQs, a whole bunch of preamps, summing, sends, all sorts of yummy goodness, you would probably want something with at least 16 busses to be able to interface well with the computer

[poserp]

A bit late to the topic; I've thought about this a bit as well (scheming is more like it); here's my current favorite option:

1.) Mix in the box on a Mac; get an Apogee Ensemble and two RNPs. Or, if you want to mix outside box, add
2.) Speck x-sum mixer.

That's 8 channels of nice preamps with DIs, 8 channels of AD/DA, plus 16 channels of analog mixing with a decent amount of routing flexibility and a few other nice things (like Apogee's limiting), and the whole package would run you $4550. Throw in Logic and an iMac and you're still well under $6500. That, in my opinion, would make for a very nice mixing/recording solution for a project studio (and even be somewhat portable). Add mics to taste.

[The Nick]

If you're really looking to drop some coin on converters (which is where I would start - without a bitchin' A/D, you're defeating the purpose of your other equipment) check out Metric Halo.

[tekis]

Why not become an intern at a local studio and LEARN, first hand, more about what's important. Who's going to teach you how to use all this stuff once you get it? Have you ever heard "Focal" speakers? Maybe you won't like them as much as something else. I became an intern at Bearsville Studios in '86. I spent time soldering midi cables and getting Chinese food for the Pretenders, but it was the best summer of my life! Getting a mentor and coming up through the studio system is sorely missing from today's scene! People taught me what I know and I'm grateful. This idea of buying a bunch of convertors, pre's,watching it on YouTube, etc isn't really tried and true. You want to go into debt for $40k with no clientele and knowledge-base--IN THIS ECONOMY/MUSIC CLIMATE??! Interacting in studios, watching the chief engineer do it, going out to see bands, doing their demos and cleaning the place up is the way to go! Keep your money and learn from those who already know, then you can make informed decisions.

[Sandyrb]

Why not become an intern at a local studio and LEARN, first hand, more about what's important. [...] Getting a mentor and coming up through the studio system is sorely missing from today's scene! [...] Interacting in studios, watching the chief engineer do it, going out to see bands, doing their demos and cleaning the place up is the way to go!

I couldn't agree more John!! Right on. But as it goes there's a whole other thread about this stuff if you want to check it out and add your voice to the sound of the crowd. :) It's called "Be Schooled Or To Old Schooled (http://www.movethemics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=180)".

Cheers,