How do I keep crappy bands out of my studio? [Archive]

Sandyrb

14 Oct 2009, 15:56

How do you guys keep the talentless away?

This is probably gonna make me sound like a 'hole but on a personal level I tend to pass those kinda jobs onto the less experienced engineers. Being studio manager has its benefits.

Another studio here in town deliberately hiked his rates to discourage bands... I'm not sure a blanket policy like that is really the appropriate answer.

Truth is even crap bands need recording I guess. Perhaps the only purpose of which becomes to get them to write / arrange / play / perform better next time... if there is a next time. I think the answer is to make an early assesment of how much time one is likely to either waste or profitably spend on a given client. Buckingham from Fleetwood Mac said it well; "If you're any good at all you know you can be better."

Or we can just fix everything in software!!

[Sound of Sandy being mercilessly eviscerated by other forum members] :D

Cheers,

seaneldon

14 Oct 2009, 16:08

Those who are talentless have no business in recording studios, period. Unless I want to make inordinate amounts of money fucking around with editing tools in a DAW for weeks on end, I stay away from the projects where talent does not exist. Talented musicians is about the ONLY thing makes this gig interesting time and time again.

If a band is clearly not ready to record, I will tell them to rehearse for a few months non stop. If they need help with arrangements and songwriting but the skeleton of decent music is somewhat there, I'll tell them to hire a producer before they hire an engineer. Really, all you've gotta do is be honest. Honesty goes a long, long way in this business. If you turn a band away, but do it nicely, they WILL come back to you when they are ready.

With less experienced bands, all you've really gotta do is make them THE MOST COMFORTABLE THEY CAN POSSIBLY BE. A band that has no little-to-no studio experience is not going to do well wearing headphones, playing to click tracks, tracking in overdubs, etc. I've pulled very good performances out of so-so bands by setting them up like a show or rehearsal, and taking all headphones out of the live room. Set up some playback speakers in there so they don't have to come into the control room to listen to a take. Play it back immediately, they'll note what they could do better, and then they can jump right into the next take.

AndrewHutchinson

14 Oct 2009, 21:00

I do agree with the assessment of talent and the importance of preparation, good song writing and musical worth, though I wish I had your problem. Since the recession, I got laid off at the studio I worked at, and I've resorted to going back to school to kill time while I look for another job. I know it doesn't make any of us happy to record crappy artists, some of which I did at my old job, but it's at least nice to be working.

evets

14 Oct 2009, 21:42

The last studio I worked at I had to record a lot of crappy bands in between the good ones. But without their business the studio may not have been able to survive, if it was up to me I would have considered turning some of them away but the studio owner wanted all the work he could get as bills had to be paid etc.

Sultan of Swing

15 Oct 2009, 00:40

I don't charge that much ($40-50/hr) but it seems to be enough to keep most of the crappy musicians away. Early on, I recorded more people that were close to the beginner end of the spectrum and I usually learned some things, even if I didn't enjoy the experience. There's nothing wrong with turning down gigs you don't want to do. I have recorded very little rap, partly because I don't like much of it and partly because I can't offer much input to a rap artist.

Maybe you should ask yourself how you could record more of the stuff you like. Check out local bands, find someone deserving, and offer to do a 3 song demo with them for free. They'll get a good recording of themselves, and you'll have some nice work to add to your portfolio. They'll also tell their friends that you're a great guy that does a good job, which could send work your way. Besides, they may scrape together some bucks to come and do more recording with you.

15 years ago, a guy I knew only a little asked me the favor of playing bass in a pickup band for a party. It wasn't great gig, no pay, and I grumbled to myself through the rehearsal and party. Turns out this guy was a part time musician, but a full time lawyer, and some months later when I needed legal help in a real estate deal, he came through in a big way and didn't charge me a penny. He also became a good friend, we formed a band and have played many (paying) gigs since.

Jeremy Stephens

15 Oct 2009, 09:57

Money doesn't work. I charge based on what I think full time professional musicians can afford (to bad labels don't invest in rock music anymore). Crappy bands usually have day jobs (with health insurance) and have more money to work with. Out of the bands I work with, about 20% really suck balls. After reading your responses, I guess I'm lucky to be getting the work. Still, I would like to make that number 0%. Anybody have any techniques for filtering talent?

I've been thinking about this lately because I had a band in recently that was horrible. I wish I had the guts to give them their deposit back and send them home 30 seconds after they walked in. I knew it was going to be rough. I still feel dirty and I have to mix the junk. Thinking about making the rough mixes 6db louder and calling it a day.

seaneldon

15 Oct 2009, 10:08

Anybody have any techniques for filtering talent?

REALLY easy: Surround yourself with talented people.

Go to more independent live shows. See good bands. Talk to good bands. Network. Bring them to your place for a tour or drinks or shooting the shit or whatever.

This is "Life 101" stuff.

How do you make friends? Be friendly.

Jeremy Stephens

15 Oct 2009, 10:40

evets

15 Oct 2009, 11:25

The trouble is the horrible really crappy bands do seem to consider themselves "real bands" and often seem to think they have successful career ahead of them!

Max Gain

15 Oct 2009, 11:54

Well, I'm no whore but I can be had!!! Last spring, an old girlfriend called me to find out what I would charge to record her 17 yearold GRANDSON's band!( no, not my grandson I'm positive!) She said They're young and they suck but they're dedicated and I'll pay you by the day to get them out of my garage. I had to be their producer because they had NO IDEA what this process ws going to be like. They did exactly what I said In prep, @ the studio and in mix. I did'nt tell them how to play and I gave them Enough input that they felt involved. Their friends/competitors are bookin' time W/me--Their website has more hits than about anyone in this area,DEath metal or not. My mixes have had thousands of MP3 downloads. They'll be back w/$$$. Their friends Will help keep the lights on and help me buy even more gear from Mercenary. And Who knows? Grandma might show me her Pre's again!!
postmortality@myspace.com

Pier

15 Oct 2009, 23:37

The minute you hear them suck just start cutting farts til they leave. The simplest solution.....

airecordings

17 Oct 2009, 16:37

Whatever you do, stay away from north jersey.

Jon Nolan

17 Oct 2009, 19:02

But when someone calls and wants me to record their screamo, hardcore, metalcore, horrorcore, cancercore, scarymoviecore, marinecore, or rap group its hard to blow them off and seem "friendly". Has anybody found a way to word their website to where it is perceived "this is where real bands record". I feel like I'm coming off as arrogant, but I'm continuously working towards the perception of a high end studio with low end rates.

if you don't wanna do any ****core, then when those bands call, have a few names of studios that do that stuff handy. I'd just tell them that you wouldn't be able to do it justice, 'cause you don't dig that style of music.
Or, how about....

"You know, band dude, after doing a few sessions of that kind of stuff, I've found that I just don't have enough of a personal frame of reference to do as good a job as you deserve. call fred over at crap-bands R us...."

i dont think there's anything wrong with passing on a particular kind of job.
My buddy does flooring, but usually not wood. Dunno why. He has his reasons. Just carpet, tile, vinyl....

he passes those other gigs on to someone else.

level devil

19 Oct 2009, 09:14

Has anybody found a way to word their website to where it is perceived "this is where real bands record".

Yes: RECORD "real" bands. And maybe, post them under your "clients" or whatever you choose to call it page. Or just record them, word spreads you know...

Rock on!

Zachg

19 Oct 2009, 18:01

This is probably gonna make me sound like a 'hole but on a personal level I tend to pass those kinda jobs onto the less experienced engineers. Being studio manager has its benefits.

Cheers,

haha, I have an odd feeling your going to want to pass nearly every metal record towards me, once i'm up to speed on the gear! :D

Sandyrb

20 Oct 2009, 21:32

I have an odd feeling you're going to want to pass nearly every metal record towards me, once I'm up to speed on the gear! :D

Yes there may well be some foundation to your odd feeling! ;)

But the simple fact is... you like metal a LOT more than I do... so it's only fair to the band for them to work with someone who can be enthusiastic about their material. I think this applies to any kind of music in any recording situation.

Perhaps we should get you in on that electro-rastabilly-folk/choral album? J/k :D

Cheers,

Jeremy Krull

21 Oct 2009, 10:04

I'm beginning to find that at least when it comes to stuff I REALLY don't want to do...like decrepit semi-literate metalcore bands from bad parts of California (you know, where the music and playing is so bad that it'd require more time in prep than the actual mixing)...I'm really just not bending on my rates. If a kid in a bedroom somewhere with Cubase and a slew of cracked plugins running presets he downloaded on a forum wants to do it for $25 a song, fine let him have the headache (not that he'll have a clue of what to do).

Tomasz

21 Oct 2009, 10:12

Many of us are only as good as the talent we record. How do you guys keep the talentless away?

I find that alot of the "less-talented" have never actually heard themselves recorded.. I ask any band to bring any kind of recording(boombox/4-track, whatever) of themselves that has some semblance of clarity and make it clear that I am listening for good timing, tempos, tuning issues etc. I find that it helps the band evaluate themselves before committing to recording. I have recorded LOTS of beyond crappy bands (unfortunately) only to discover that they finally realize that they need to rehearse more now that they've heard themselves from a different perspective for the first time... I've had bands say " wow, dudes, we kinda suck.." after hearing back some song that they thought was some kind of masterpiece.. HA..

Sandyrb

21 Oct 2009, 10:19

If a kid in a bedroom somewhere with Cubase and a slew of cracked plugins running presets he downloaded on a forum wants to do it for $25 a song, fine let him have the headache (not that he'll have a clue of what to do).

Very true! And not only will he have the headache but the inestimable joy of ingenuously believing that he's created something awesome. [This is my tongue firmly in my cheek at this point]

But still it hacks me off and for two reasons: 1) no matter how bad, that's business which we *might* have been able to profit from and 2) the poor innocents who go to Cubase / bedroom kid will probably also believe that it sounds great. But that's because they haven't got the foggiest idea what a good recording sounds like and are probably so bad that it wouldn't make much difference.

Thankfully the discerning customer who doesn't want to sound like sh*t will always look for quality.

Cheers,

Sandyrb

21 Oct 2009, 10:23

I've had bands say " wow, dudes, we kinda suck.." after hearing back some song that they thought was some kind of masterpiece.

Also very true! Once they reach the point of realizing that a recording makes them sound LIKE THEM, warts 'n' all, I think it's a good starting point to progress to better.

Now, if only that could be done *before* recording haha. (See additional details in pre-production thread) :)

Cheers,

Mixwell

21 Oct 2009, 11:07

Also very true! Once they reach the point of realizing that a recording makes them sound LIKE THEM, warts 'n' all, I think it's a good starting point to progress to better.

Now, if only that could be done *before* recording haha. (See additional details in pre-production thread) :)

Cheers,

Very True Sandy!

I find that the universe unfolds in many directions. There are those like myself, who donate time/patience to young aspiring bands, [the good the bad and the ugly] with only the intention of creating positive karma and juju throughout the galaxy. I feel that it is my job to help people, and in the process, all involved are positively affected. I learn from doing, and I am sure this is true with musicians. I think we all build better muscle memory, each time we practice our art. Maybe, just maybe, we can promote better music with act's of selflessness, instead of up-nosed engineer-izms about who and what we all record. Everyone has their level of tolerance for bull shit. Even though I wouldn't record my grandmothers kazoo through an SSL preamp, I would still record it. Bottom line, I am into recording, even shitty recording.

When I help the bands who have no money learn how to work in a studio, and practice their art/craft, they ultimately hear the result on a decent sounding playback system, and the pot is stirred every time, at least in my experience it is. Before the actual dance, the musicians can take this material and study what has been transcribed only to come back smelling like roses. It also serves as a way to educate myself on how I'm going to record them, and what the tool set will be required for the job. I cannot overstate the importance and process of "repetition". These activity's might be known as pre-pre-pre-pre production, but I think this is where a young engineer may be able to have an edge on other "pro-tools" operators in the field. Digging in the trenches gets your boots muddy. You can't ever learn commando style engineering sitting in front of the HAL box regurgitating cues like a robot. The curriculum taught to young engineers is more of less geared to only run the HAL box, and there is no traditional methodology shown. At a certain point, you have to teach yourself to get out there and figure it out.

Trial by fire.........

Flame on fellow comrades

Tomasz

21 Oct 2009, 11:41

I Even though I wouldn't record my grandmothers kazoo through an SSL preamp, I would still record it. Bottom line, I am into recording, even shitty recording.

The curriculum taught to young engineers is more of less geared to only run the HAL box, and there is no traditional methodology shown. At a certain point, you have to teach yourself to get out there and figure it out.

Couldn't agree more... Except I'd probably record my grandmother's kazoo through the sweetest pre and mic combo I had....

Having done this stuff for longer than I'd ever admit, I recently attended a school for audio engineering, and will agree that those who better understood core audio engineering principles excelled..
Bill Halverson told me "mic placement has become a lost art in much of today's recording".

Mixwell

21 Oct 2009, 11:51

Bill Halverson told me "mic placement has become a lost art in much of today's recording".

Thus "MOVE THE MICS" has been spawned for the greater good of man kind.

Sandyrb

21 Oct 2009, 19:56

The curriculum taught to young engineers is more or less geared to only run the HAL box and there is no traditional methodology shown.

Holy cow man I couldn't agree more. Honestly I think most recording schools are a bag of w*nk. Back in the old country I'd get fifty or more letters a year from young hopefuls who knew everything about cutting up waveforms in a DAW and had certificates up the wazoo but couldn't even provide a competent demo recording to show off their "skills".

Case in point... at another studio where I was working we had a guy join us after graduating from the supposed "best recording school in Canada". He'd spent rude money and worked really hard at the courses. . . . . .

. . . . and yet I had to show him how to mic up a drumkit for Pete's sake!!! I mean, holy shmoly... what are they teaching these guys?!?! It would have been cheaper for the lad to have booked a professional studio for a month and asked the most experienced engineer there "show me everything".

But perhaps therein lies the germ of an idea... ;)

Cheers,

Ken Morgan

22 Oct 2009, 08:41

I would agree that our job is not to access crap bands - our job is to capture music, make it sound as good as we can based on what we know, with the ultimate decisions in the hands of those paying the bills, and so on.

Some very relevant "a-HA" moments in mic placement, eq, whatever, came about trying to solve problems from incredible bad sounding and performing clients.

Jeremy Stephens

23 Oct 2009, 00:07

Bottom line, I am into recording, even shitty recording.

Recording isn't fun for me if the band sucks. I was just wondering what you guys do to improve the quality of the clients you record. Like somehow screening potential clients. I'm trying not to sound like a recordosnob but if were all trying to better ourselves and our music projects, the quality of the musicians is a huge factor.

Dan

23 Oct 2009, 11:00

The MexICAN

23 Oct 2009, 13:45

I was thought one important lesson. You are going to record bands that suck, that you hate, but the important thing is that you have fun doing it. If you're not having fun whether the music sucks or not then you shouldn't be doing it. I am pretty sure their isn't one person on this forum that can say that they didn't get into this business to have fun.

Mixwell

23 Oct 2009, 14:13

Keith Gentile

23 Oct 2009, 14:51

Recording isn't fun for me if the band sucks. I was just wondering what you guys do to improve the quality of the clients you record. Like somehow screening potential clients. I'm trying not to sound like a recordosnob but if were all trying to better ourselves and our music projects, the quality of the musicians is a huge factor.

+1 What Adam said. I usually check out a potential band's practice session or live show (if they're local of course) to get an idea of what I'm dealing with and what to expect. I then check out any pre-recorded stuff they've done to see if I can improve on their sound, whatever it may be. When it comes time to record, what really helps is if you, the engineer, are a musician. You pick up on things that no one else does, and although most of the time they are minute details, it really adds up in the end. IMO the most important part is to trust yourself in your own environment.

Sandyrb

23 Oct 2009, 17:32

You pick up on things that no one else does, and although most of the time they are minute details, it really adds up in the end.

I totally agree with this. If there's one thing I've learned in the last couple of decades it's that it's not the big, sweeping, dynamic changes but the tiny little details that turn a good song into a great record! Trouble is, most "engineers" today - present company on this forum excepted - don't give a flying fruit about aiming for excellence and getting the details right.

Anyway... don't want to get into another off-topic rant. :)

Cheers,

Ken Morgan

23 Oct 2009, 21:15

Anyway... don't want to get into another off-topic rant. :)

Cheers,

Please do...the off-topic rants are what the details really are all about (much unlike the Hokie Pokie)...

What may seem OT may be stunningly relavent to another - much like the "focus on the song" vs "focus on the production" debates we all seem to have.

Just one country guy's opinion.

Jeremy Stephens

24 Oct 2009, 09:35

Thanks for the replies guys.

I'm not sure you guys know my definition of a "crappy band". Let me share the experience that inspired the original post:

A couple of weeks ago, I'm tracking this band, Within 60 seconds of their first run through, I'm on the studio floor tuning their guitars for them. They didn't know how to tune. It went downhill from there. One guitar player played through an old Peavey P.A. system, at least it covered up the tuning problems because of the incredible amount of distortion. It was pure white noise. The drummer used the studio kit but used his cymbals. They were all broken pieces of sheet metal. They had 2 singers. One guy that only screams and the other actually sings. The singing one has a pretty bad speech impediment. The kicker is they all had some type of respiratory illness. Lots of coughing and flem. Everyone in the band (except the bass player) was dipping chew and spitting a tobacco/snot mix into old water bottles (and leaving them in the control room during playbacks). During the first 60 seconds of the session (while they/I was tuning) the bass player spilt an entire gallon sized big gulp of pepsi from taco bell on my new carpet. For some reason they left a mountain of garbage in the parking lot (a bunch of taco bell wrappers and full spit bottles). If these guys were 12 or 13 years old I would be more understanding, but they were all in college. I like them all personally but I don't want them back. They paid full price, but who cares.

I work with mediocre bands all the time. In fact, that is mostly what I do. There are many groups I've worked with that have started out mediocre and eventually (after a couple years of patience) made great recordings. I've had them call me in the middle of the night excited about the song the just wrote. I love being part of that.

I have plenty of patience, but this type of business is bad for business.:finger:

Ken Morgan

24 Oct 2009, 09:55

that does change things a bit, Jeremy. Based on that description, you didn't record a band, you tracked a monkey act in need of medical quarantine.

:)

Sandyrb

24 Oct 2009, 12:06

Let me share the experience that inspired the original post

Okay Jeremy, you're right; that was pretty freakin' bad. But I'm sure we've all "enjoyed" similar experiences. Perhaps there should be a thread on "horrific band anecdotes" or something. :)

Anyway, to therefore answer again the question you originally posited, here is my response:

Kill them. KILL THEM ALL! :p

Cheers,

Zachg

25 Oct 2009, 22:12

Kill them. KILL THEM ALL! :p

Cheers,

:D And this, my friends proves why most engeneers shouldn't keep weapons in a studio :D

On second thought, that might also BE a way to keep crappy bands out of the studio!

bizarre sense of humour, need sleep,
Zach

DeyBwah

13 Nov 2009, 01:53

Let me share the experience that inspired the original post:

Oh.. my.. god... I'm sorry but I could not help but laugh out loud in my cube reading that.. I hope I NEVER encounter an experience like that and respect to you for not crushing their skulls with a large blunt object. The taco bell trash in the parking lot is a nice touch, wow.

Dey

ShaneOConnor

26 Nov 2009, 23:28

huge baseball bat

moose

01 Jan 2010, 20:58

I'm not sure you guys know my definition of a "crappy band". Let me share the experience that inspired the original post:

That's all lovely stuff right there. And all stuff that I don't miss at all...

Seems like there's really two two types of "suck" happening here. Bands that suck because they can't play, and bands that suck because they're disrespectful to the property of the studio.

The easy way to deal with the first thing, the ones that can't play their instruments is to require some sort of "demo" before they show up. Since I don't own a 'studio' anymore and do independent productions, any band that I'm even considering working with has to give me some sorta "live" recording.

Even if its just one mic in the center of the room. I need to be sure they can actually play. Regardless if they can or can't play, it helps me to figure out exactly what I may be dealing with & therefore, align everyone's expectations. If at all possible I'll even go to one or two of their gigs.

There are also some types of music I simply won't work on... and for that (or anyone who really sucks) I say simply that I think there's someone else more qualified to work on their style of music. "Yeah man, I don't really get where this is coming from... I'd rather not do a bad job on this".

Years ago when I had the commercial shop & got bands in that really sucked & they didn't have the time & money to polish it all up, then I'd try to find something about them that doesn't suck & push THAT to the forefront.

If you can't make it sound good, make it sound interesting.

That could & should also include experimenting with unusual & creative recording techniques...

Now... the bands that come in & leave trash all over the place... that's harder. The only way is to be a hardass and have hardass polices posted up in big letters, usually in the entry way or lounge if not both. Do you have signs on the control room door stating "no food or drink allowed"? If they try to carry it in anyway then smack 'em!

How about big trash cans in visible places? A couple of 30 gallon cans in various spots painted "trash" and "recycling" should be fairly obvious... especially if there's a line on the policy page that says "we have trash cans, please use them".

Adding lines for busted gear (your stuff) is also a must... maybe have "clean up" clause for the times they leave shit all over the place... add $50 or $75 to the bill for each time it happens. You know, an hour of "clean up" time at the standard rate. That gives you ample space to hound 'em without being an nice guy about it... tell 'em its coming from the money man who actually owns the place.